From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Feb 1 03:44:06 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA's remailer Message-ID: <3A794C06.2F85@aenet.net> I just had the following exchange with Jeff regarding his recent use of the regular club remailer: Jeff Masnaghetti wrote: > > > I am not going to reply to the seds list because they > > > apparently want to reserve that for announcements and stuff, > > > keeping down the traffic. > > > > I've never heard anyone complain about astronomy related > > traffic. > > I got lots of complaints about posting there. The jist of it was that this > list is for announcements and not chat. They wanted to keep it low-volume > and suggested that if I wanted an active list I should go to the TAC list. I > got told that probably 10 times. Speaking as a director, I find this to be an embarrassment! Here someone new tries to be a good "astro-citizen" and uses the club remailer for honest questions about the right things to do at a club star party and he gets flack from all directions. :( (This explains why I haven't seen much traffic on the remailer recently myself.) Jim just wrote on the regular remailer: > > Hi, Jeff, > > To answer your last question first, there are about 200 people on the > list, but it's not a discussion list, but rather an announcement list > for late-breaking SJAA news and reminders, such as a meeting coming up. > That's why you have not seen any traffic. (Later Jim mentions the TAC list.) When did this decision get made? This is the first I've heard of it. I feel strongly about this. The club remailer should be a resource for folks to use to talk about club activities and astronomy, not just for the odd annoucement. If some people only want to get annoucements, then we should have another remailer just for that purpose...And give it name that makes its purpose obvious, such as announce@sjaa.net or something. Yes, the TAC list is available (among other things), but it isn't SJAA. Gary From jvn at sjpc.org Thu Feb 1 12:25:32 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: [SJAA] Hello there References: <882569E6.0067AFEA.00@hqoutbound.ops.3com.com> Message-ID: <3A79C63C.7B68@sjpc.org> Richard_Burks@3com.com wrote: > > Could I suggest that if we want a discussion group then could we move it to a > group discussion board instead of using everyone's email addresses. > Personally, I enjoy the chat but would prefer to move this to a discussion room > and not use the email except for general announcements. Jeff Crilly wrote: > The second paragraph of ... > http://www.sjaa.net/majordomo.html > ... basically details what Jim said. > > As a subscriber, I'd like to see the continued > high signal-to-noise ratio. Hi, Rich, Jeff(s), board, The SJAA list has seen flurries of discussion in the past, and it ran it's course in a day or three. Let's not do anything too quickly. Please, no new E-List! I don't need another spam bait. I think of the TAC list as a regional resource (it crosses all club lines), and I point newcomers to it as a matter of course. The principal participants on TAC discuss the volume on that list, and are trying to move some of it to specialized lists (CCD imaging, in particular). I'm not at all sure that there is need for another general discussion list. But if TAC did not exist, we'd have to invent it! Mark et.al. have made a great contribution. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From jvn at sjpc.org Thu Feb 1 12:08:01 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA's remailer References: <3A794C06.2F85@aenet.net> Message-ID: <3A79C221.6891@sjpc.org> Gary Mitchell wrote: > > I just had the following exchange with Jeff regarding his > recent use of the regular club remailer: > > Jeff Masnaghetti wrote: > > > > I am not going to reply to the seds list because they > > > > apparently want to reserve that for announcements and stuff, > > > > keeping down the traffic. > > > > > > I've never heard anyone complain about astronomy related > > > traffic. > > > > I got lots of complaints about posting there. The jist of it was that this > > list is for announcements and not chat. They wanted to keep it low-volume > > and suggested that if I wanted an active list I should go to the TAC list. I > > got told that probably 10 times. > > Speaking as a director, I find this to be an embarrassment! Here > someone new tries to be a good "astro-citizen" and uses the club > remailer for honest questions about the right things to do at a > club star party and he gets flack from all directions. :( AGREE. I have not gotten complaints. Initially I replied directly to Jeff, and then decided that his questions were of general interest, and so reposted to the SJAA list. It surely is club business to help people, not only in observing techniques but also in good citizenship at star parties. I am aghast that 10 people told Jeff to take a walk to TAC. I don't know the tone that the other 9 used; I hope my suggestion was helpful and not off-putting. Objectively and politely stated, it is good advice to Jeff to suggest the TAC list. Hmm. I wonder if I should post my Jeff reply, this time to the TAC list. > Jim just wrote on the regular remailer: > > > > Hi, Jeff, > > > > To answer your last question first, there are about 200 people on the > > list, but it's not a discussion list, but rather an announcement list > > for late-breaking SJAA news and reminders, such as a meeting coming up. > > That's why you have not seen any traffic. > (Later Jim mentions the TAC list.) > > When did this decision get made? This is the first I've > heard of it. It's what Bill Arnett described when he created the list. OTOH, I did not and do not feel that Jeff's query was out of order; nor my reply to it -- his questions are good ones that all newcomers should consider. OTOOH, I would not want the SJAA list to become a busy chatty list with low information content. Now that I think of it, there is material on the SJAA site regarding star party etiquette. I suppose I could have pointed Jeff at that (especially as I wrote part of it), but it does not address all of his specific questions. Maybe my note to him should be added to the etiquette page. > Yes, the TAC list is available (among other things), but it > isn't SJAA. The TAC list is a great resource for anyone in the area, and I subscribe to and read it (albeit sometimes very thinly). It isn't SJAA but there's about 30% overlap in readership. I most certainly am NOT knocking it for the high traffic! But that high traffic is too much for some people, and I respect the latter's needs, too. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From bill at nineplanets.org Thu Feb 1 12:51:27 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA's remailer In-Reply-To: <3A794C06.2F85@aenet.net> Message-ID: I don't see the problem here. But we'll sure as heck have a problem if we open up the SJAA list to random astro-chat. There have already been a couple unsubs from the current little flurry. The SJAA list as it is is just about perfect for what it does. And the TAC list is close to perfect for what it does. It's GOOD that it's not specifically SJAA; we aren't the only club in the area :-) And the global ASTRO list is just fine for more general discussions. Yes, it's too bad that Jeff Masnaghetti felt like he got flamed. But he did not follow the advice presented in the message he got when he subscribed to the list: "This list is for San Jose Astronomical Association club business and annoucements only; it is not a general discussion list.". I hope all the responses he got were polite but if not the fault lies not with SJAA but with its impolite members. Jeff probably felt bad because he got so many similar messages. Again, there's not much we can do about that. Welcome to the Net, Jeff, it's a good place for a thick skin :-) -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From JeffM at geysernetworks.com Thu Feb 1 13:02:46 2001 From: JeffM at geysernetworks.com (Jeff Masnaghetti) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA's remailer Message-ID: <6264EA808496D411AF5F00B0D049FB9609BBC5@quest.int.geysernetworks.com> > Gary Mitchell wrote: > I am aghast that 10 people told Jeff to take a walk to TAC. I don't > know the tone that the other 9 used; I hope my suggestion was helpful > and not off-putting. Objectively and politely stated, it is > good advice > to Jeff to suggest the TAC list. > I just want to comment here that the replies I got suggesting the tac list were very polite and I was not put out at all. If this list is truly intended to be an announcement list, then the suggestions were not out of place. If this is to be a discussion list, then they were incorrect or inappropriate, but still not impolite. And I got a lot of very nice, helpful, friendly, and inquizitive (sp) emails that nicely projected the warmth of your members. I have had a couple of very pleasant private exchanges. :) I checked out the TAC list, but the volume of 30 to 50 messages per day is a bit much for me to handle. I have been putting in 12 hour days at work, time on the weekends, and still trying to give my immediate and extended families the time they deserve. Since I am up to my gills at work and have a boss who likes to peek over my shoulder and criticise, I simply could not read a large volume. So I signed up to the TAC announcement list. I am very interested in turning star parties into campouts, meeting other stargazers, and learning more about this hobby. I wish I had more time to indulge right now, hopefully in the not-too-distant future,.... So I would suggest that you folks come to an agreement (ask a group to agree? Hahahaha) on what the purpose of this list is to be and let it go with that. You might also entertain the idea of an announcement list and a discussion list, and then decide which this one is. Jeff From akkana at shallowsky.com Thu Feb 1 14:47:10 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA's remailer In-Reply-To: <3A794C06.2F85@aenet.net>; from wb6yru@aenet.net on Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 03:44:06AM -0800 References: <3A794C06.2F85@aenet.net> <3A794C06.2F85@aenet.net> <3A79C221.6891@sjpc.org> <3A794C06.2F85@aenet.net> Message-ID: <20010201144710.B18506@shallowsky.com> Jim Van Nuland writes: > AGREE. I have not gotten complaints. Initially I replied directly to > Jeff, and then decided that his questions were of general interest, and > so reposted to the SJAA list. It surely is club business to help > people, not only in observing techniques but also in good citizenship at > star parties. Absolutely. I don't see any problem with members asking questions on the list (and I hope I made that clear in my private reply). My understanding is that it is intended to be a low-traffic, high signal, "mostly announcements and club business/activities" list, and I did suggest TAC for general chat for someone who can keep up with the high volume. Bill Arnett writes: > Yes, it's too bad that Jeff Masnaghetti felt like he got flamed. But he did > not follow the advice presented in the message he got when he subscribed to > the list: "This list is for San Jose Astronomical Association club business > and annoucements only; it is not a general discussion list.". It depends on whether "club business" includes star parties, which is what Jeff was asking about. I thought it did -- that new members asking questions on the list was a perfectly valid use of the list (but that to keep traffic low it's probably better to keep most replies and subsequent chatter off the list). The second paragraph of http://www.sjaa.net/majordomo.html says: "the intent is that this list be focused on topics specifically relating to SJAA such as SJAA-sponsored events, SJAA schedules and meetings, SJAA business and politics, or questions about SJAA membership." SJAA-sponsored events include star parties, no? If not, we should clarify the description; but I don't see any need, myself -- it's not like the list is overwhelmed with people asking questions, and new members asking questions and getting star party information is a GOOD thing which we should be happy to see. ...Akkana From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Feb 1 16:44:59 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA's remailer References: <3A794C06.2F85@aenet.net> <3A79C221.6891@sjpc.org> Message-ID: <3A7A030B.39AA@aenet.net> Jim Van Nuland wrote: > > Yes, the TAC list is available (among other things), but it > > isn't SJAA. > > The TAC list is a great resource for anyone in the area, and I > subscribe to and read it (albeit sometimes very thinly). It isn't SJAA > but there's about 30% overlap in readership. I most certainly am NOT > knocking it for the high traffic! But that high traffic is too much for > some people, and I respect the latter's needs, too. Bill Arnett wrote: > > I don't see the problem here. But we'll sure as heck have a problem if we > open up the SJAA list to random astro-chat. There have already been a > couple unsubs from the current little flurry. The SJAA list as it is is > just about perfect for what it does. > > And the TAC list is close to perfect for what it does. It's GOOD that it's > not specifically SJAA; we aren't the only club in the area :-) And the > global ASTRO list is just fine for more general discussions. The problem here, as I see it, is that TAC is wide open and regional while SJAA is very restrictive. Someone interested in talking about SJAA to SJAA members has to go to TAC and put up with a very high traffic load--someone mentioned 30-50 messages per day! Feast vs famine. Don't get me wrong, having a regional remailer is fine, so is having a SJAA remailer just for announcements. But, don't you see a reasonable need for something between? Gary From bill at nineplanets.org Thu Feb 1 17:56:36 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA's remailer In-Reply-To: <3A7A030B.39AA@aenet.net> Message-ID: on 2/1/01 4:44 PM, Gary Mitchell at wb6yru@aenet.net wrote: > ... Someone interested > in talking about SJAA to SJAA members has to go to TAC... That would seem to be an appropriate topic for the SJAA list. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Feb 1 23:56:31 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA's remailer References: Message-ID: <3A7A682F.4D54@aenet.net> Bill Arnett wrote: > > on 2/1/01 4:44 PM, Gary Mitchell at wb6yru@aenet.net wrote: > > > ... Someone interested > > in talking about SJAA to SJAA members has to go to TAC... > > That would seem to be an appropriate topic for the SJAA list. That's what I thought, but apparently not according to what I'm hearing. Gary From mojo at whiteoaks.com Fri Feb 2 10:35:11 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA list Message-ID: If you want to enforce *any* policy on the SJAA list, you'll have to make it moderated. By the way, I feel good enough about mailman 2.0 that I could move the list over to my host any time. Of course, "it ain't broke" yet on seds. I'd also like to make someone else administrator of the SJAABoard list. Mailman makes that a pretty easy job. :) Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From bill at nineplanets.org Fri Feb 2 11:57:43 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 2/2/01 10:35 AM, Morris Jones at mojo@whiteoaks.com wrote: > ...I'd also like to make someone else administrator of the SJAABoard list. > Mailman makes that a pretty easy job. :) I would be happy to do that. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From akkana at shallowsky.com Fri Feb 2 12:39:14 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com Message-ID: <20010202123914.F64281@shallowsky.com> I sent CafronMd a pointer to the TAC list and a suggestion about why some people might want to keep the volume low (e.g. people who only check once or twice a week and don't want to see 1000 messages there every time they check in) in the hope that he'll check that and stop posting messages every five minutes whining about how there's not enough discussion traffic on the sjaa list and how all the people who want to unsubscribe are weenies who must not like astronomy. Might not hurt if others pointed him that way as well (politely, so he doesn't post sixteen messages complaining about ill treatment), before the list is decimated. ...Akkana From bill at nineplanets.org Fri Feb 2 12:46:20 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com In-Reply-To: <20010202123914.F64281@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: on 2/2/01 12:39 PM, Akkana at akkana@shallowsky.com wrote: > ... > Might not hurt if others pointed him that way as well ... I did that. I expect that's enough. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From bill at nineplanets.org Fri Feb 2 13:38:09 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com In-Reply-To: <20010202123914.F64281@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: After causing most of the trouble, CafromMd got pissed and unsubscribed :-( -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From jvn at sjpc.org Fri Feb 2 16:18:51 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com References: Message-ID: <3A7B4E6B.353D@sjpc.org> Bill Arnett wrote: > > After causing most of the trouble, CafromMd got pissed and unsubscribed :-( Frankly, I'd make that a smiley, not a frown. I'm aghast that an on-topic message sends some people into a tizzy. Too bad for them. We won't miss them, but they'll miss us (or some good information from time to time. The firestorm will burn out soon, and we'll be back to an announcement every month or so. Hang in there. Steve Greenberg phoned, expressing the same attitude (above), but did not want to post that to the list as it would add to the off-topic traffic. He said I should tell the board of his feelings about it. That list and the Ephemeris is his link to the club, until his job lets him have some time to come down from Livermore. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From akkana at shallowsky.com Fri Feb 2 16:27:06 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com In-Reply-To: <3A7B4E6B.353D@sjpc.org>; from jvn@sjpc.org on Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 04:18:51PM -0800 References: <3A7B4E6B.353D@sjpc.org> Message-ID: <20010202162706.K64281@shallowsky.com> Jim Van Nuland writes: > Bill Arnett wrote: > > > > After causing most of the trouble, CafromMd got pissed and unsubscribed :-( > > Frankly, I'd make that a smiley, not a frown. I'm aghast that an > on-topic message sends some people into a tizzy. Too bad for them. We > won't miss them, but they'll miss us (or some good information from time > to time. I don't think it was the one on-topic message, I think it was the twelve followups from CafromMd. I'm relieved that he's gone, so I have to agree with Jim about the smiley. (I was on the verge of sending him a flame myself telling him to give it a rest.) If I were list administrator, I'd be mightily tempted to just ignore all those unsub messages that were sent to the list (if they really wanted to unsub, they should have read the instructions, and they probably don't really want to since the list normally isn't like this). ...Akkana From mojo at whiteoaks.com Fri Feb 2 16:27:30 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com In-Reply-To: <3A7B4E6B.353D@sjpc.org> Message-ID: As an aside, it would be trivial to add a moderated "-announce" list. Moderation means nothing goes out before being reviewed. sjaa-announce@sjaa.net Just a thought. Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From jvn at sjpc.org Fri Feb 2 16:30:56 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com -- second thoughts References: Message-ID: <3A7B5140.6E02@sjpc.org> Bill Arnett wrote: > > After causing most of the trouble, CafromMd got pissed and unsubscribed :-( I just went back and read his postings. Some had the subject line "remove me" but that was because he was replying to a message with that subject. His text seems to be saying that he's happy with the list, even with the current traffic. Or did he send an unsubscribe command? -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From jvn at sjpc.org Fri Feb 2 16:33:25 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com References: Message-ID: <3A7B51D5.6EBA@sjpc.org> Morris Jones wrote: > > As an aside, it would be trivial to add a moderated "-announce" list. > Moderation means nothing goes out before being reviewed. I really doubt that it's necessary. This will burn out as straw fires do, and we'll go from there. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From jane at whiteoaks.com Fri Feb 2 16:33:43 2001 From: jane at whiteoaks.com (Jane Houston Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com References: Message-ID: <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> And announce the "announce" list in the next Ephemeris maybe? Might be a way to get people back. Personally, I agree with Akkana, and I'd ignore the unsubscribes. Normally there is such a small amount of mail on this list. JHJ Morris Jones wrote: > As an aside, it would be trivial to add a moderated "-announce" list. > Moderation means nothing goes out before being reviewed. > > sjaa-announce@sjaa.net > > Just a thought. > > Mojo > -- > Morris Jones <*> > San Rafael, CA > mojo@whiteoaks.com > http://www.whiteoaks.com > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard -- Jane Houston Jones San Rafael, CA jane@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From bill at nineplanets.org Fri Feb 2 16:54:26 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com -- second thoughts In-Reply-To: <3A7B5140.6E02@sjpc.org> Message-ID: on 2/2/01 4:30 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: >... did [CafromMd] send an unsubscribe command? He sent a message to me asking to be removed. I did it. Then he sent several more messages complaining that he wasn't yet removed. I think he's pretty clueless. Re: ignoring the unsub requests: I have already processed them all. It seems to me as administrator my duty is to respond to such requests without question. But in each case I sent a message asking the person to reconsider. But they've all stayed unsubed. It's no big deal either way. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From koopm at best.com Fri Feb 2 17:54:31 2001 From: koopm at best.com (Michael Koop) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com -- second thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Which seems to indicate that they want a moderated list. I think most people want to subscribe to an announce type list only. Sigh. I hate to create yet another list, but it looks like we need to. It's funny since TAC is going through something similar with the CCD/Imaging thing. I dont think they need to with TAC, since the whole problem can be avoided by using good headers. I alway like seeing who has what equipment and how some of the imagers improved their equipment. We all benefit from that. So what we may end up with after this silly event: A) A moderated Announce List: A moderator preapproves all posts from general members except for the board members who can post directly. I sure would like to see announcements of where board members are going to observe and this may be a good way to do this. B) A General List: This is the list as it exists now, except we would encourage discussions on SJAA activities which should be separate from TAC C) The board List: A discussion list of the running of the SJAA. Just my 2 cents, Mike On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, Bill Arnett wrote: > on 2/2/01 4:30 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: > > >... did [CafromMd] send an unsubscribe command? > > He sent a message to me asking to be removed. I did it. Then he sent > several more messages complaining that he wasn't yet removed. I think he's > pretty clueless. > > Re: ignoring the unsub requests: I have already processed them all. It > seems to me as administrator my duty is to respond to such requests without > question. But in each case I sent a message asking the person to > reconsider. But they've all stayed unsubed. It's no big deal either way. > > -- > Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org > Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > From north at znet.com Fri Feb 2 18:16:40 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com -- second thoughts References: Message-ID: <3A7B6A07.AC1CA68A@znet.com> Mike: >>Which seems to indicate that they want a moderated list. << Nope. They just don't want a bunch of noise from some idiot. I think this is one of those twice-a-year ballups that just happen. For some reason, at times like this, people tend to want to *do* something immediately, but I think probably there's no need to so anything at all. Moderating a list that includes timely matter that folks might not remember until a day or two beforehand (or even less) is a tiresome responsibility, especially when the average daily load is zero. I think maybe we can just let this dog go back to sleep. dave From wb6yru at aenet.net Sat Feb 3 00:45:47 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com References: <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> Message-ID: <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> Jane Houston Jones wrote: > > And announce the "announce" list in the next Ephemeris maybe? Might be a > way to get people back. Personally, I agree with Akkana, and I'd ignore > the unsubscribes. Normally there is such a small amount of mail on this > list. JHJ > > Morris Jones wrote: > > > As an aside, it would be trivial to add a moderated "-announce" list. > > Moderation means nothing goes out before being reviewed. Making an announce list would solve this problem (eventhough it will burn out shortly) *and* prevent it from happening again. Further, this make everyone happy: those who want a club chat list and those who only want to see the odd announcement. If it's not a big deal, as MoJo says, then let's do it and be done with it. I move that SJAA sets up a new remailer list, announce@sjaa.net, for announcements and bulletins only and make the existing sjaa@sjaa.net list open for club members to chat. The announce list will be started with all the subscribers now on the sjaa list (to save everyone from having to subscribe individually). At this time, I doubt the announce@sjaa.net list would have to be moderated. If at some point it becomes necessary, we can deal with it then. Gary From north at znet.com Sat Feb 3 09:52:33 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com References: <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> Message-ID: <3A7C4560.C1BC2914@znet.com> Gary: >>I move that SJAA sets up a new remailer list,<< You know what? I don't know if we need a second to start the clock ticking on discussion! What's the rule? Dave From bill at nineplanets.org Sat Feb 3 12:50:14 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com In-Reply-To: <3A7C4560.C1BC2914@znet.com> Message-ID: on 2/3/01 9:52 AM, Dave North at north@znet.com wrote: > Gary: >>I move that SJAA sets up a new remailer list,<< I don't think that's a good idea. The announce list is essentially what we have now. The chat list is essentially TAC. It's not good to have two lists with the same charter: you never know which to post to and hence you end up posting to both. Just doubles the traffic. Who needs that? > You know what? I don't know if we need a second to start the clock > ticking on discussion! > What's the rule? All we need is the intention to propose a motion. That's happened. Voting can begin at noon on Tuesday. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From koopm at best.com Sat Feb 3 13:02:04 2001 From: koopm at best.com (Michael Koop) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bill, Can you give us some stats on the number of unsubscribes. How many actually figured out the correct way? We have had some "High" traffic times in the past. How has this compared? Mike On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Bill Arnett wrote: > on 2/3/01 9:52 AM, Dave North at north@znet.com wrote: > > > Gary: >>I move that SJAA sets up a new remailer list,<< > > I don't think that's a good idea. The announce list is essentially what we > have now. The chat list is essentially TAC. It's not good to have two > lists with the same charter: you never know which to post to and hence you > end up posting to both. Just doubles the traffic. Who needs that? > > > You know what? I don't know if we need a second to start the clock > > ticking on discussion! > > What's the rule? > > All we need is the intention to propose a motion. That's happened. Voting > can begin at noon on Tuesday. > > -- > Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org > Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > From wb6yru at aenet.net Sat Feb 3 13:40:12 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com References: Message-ID: <3A7C7ABC.7BB0@aenet.net> Bill Arnett wrote: > > on 2/3/01 9:52 AM, Dave North at north@znet.com wrote: > > > Gary: >>I move that SJAA sets up a new remailer list,<< > > I don't think that's a good idea. The announce list is essentially what we > have now. Actually, I just looked at our web site where the usage is described...It doesn't say anything about announcements only, quite the opposite. > The chat list is essentially TAC. That's *a* chat list, not a SJAA chat list...and a high volume one at that. > It's not good to have two > lists with the same charter: you never know which to post to and hence you > end up posting to both. Just doubles the traffic. Who needs that? They both won't have the same charter, one is for announcements only, the other is for chat. Where the lists are mentioned, it can be specified that announcements should not be posted to both. I think most people are smart enough to catch on to this. Gary From bill at nineplanets.org Sat Feb 3 13:59:02 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com In-Reply-To: <3A7C7ABC.7BB0@aenet.net> Message-ID: on 2/3/01 1:40 PM, Gary Mitchell at wb6yru@aenet.net wrote: >... I just looked at our web site where the usage is > described...It doesn't say anything about announcements only, > quite the opposite. It says "...the intent is that this list be focused on topics specifically relating to SJAA such as SJAA-sponsored events..." That is supposed to exclude general chat. The policy is also made clear in the initial "welcome" message that each member gets when they subscribe. >> The chat list is essentially TAC. > > That's *a* chat list, not a SJAA chat list...and a high > volume one at that. Yes, that's exactly what's being requested: a general astronomy chat list where high volume is expected. We don't need another one. >> It's not good to have two >> lists with the same charter: you never know which to post to and hence you >> end up posting to both. Just doubles the traffic. Who needs that? > > They both won't have the same charter, one is for announcements > only, the other is for chat... The distinction between the announcement and chat lists is clear. The problem is that I don't want to duplicate TAC. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From bill at nineplanets.org Sat Feb 3 14:04:19 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 2/3/01 1:02 PM, Michael Koop at koopm@best.com wrote: > Bill, > Can you give us some stats on the number of unsubscribes. Looks like we lost 21 (and gained 2) > How many > actually figured out the correct way? Only a few :-( > We have had some "High" traffic > times in the past. How has this compared? This time is much worse. But we have more members now, too. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From jvn at sjpc.org Sat Feb 3 14:00:51 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <3A7C4560.C1BC2914@znet.com> Message-ID: <3A7C7F93.1E51@sjpc.org> Dave North wrote: > > Gary: >>I move that SJAA sets up a new remailer list,<< > > You know what? I don't know if we need a second to start the clock > ticking on discussion! > What's the rule? Maybe the subject line should reflect that a specific motion / topic is under discussion? I'll change it... -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From koopm at best.com Sat Feb 3 17:41:38 2001 From: koopm at best.com (Michael Koop) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA Mail Archive has True Email Addresses! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ouch! Bill A., Please remove all true email addresses from the archive. All the people who were complaining about spam would have a reason once some web crawlers fetched them from the archive page. Another possibility would be to make this a members only page. Also, you may want to break up the archive to "yearly" sections. We do not have the volume like the TAC list needing monthly divisions. Mike From akkana at shallowsky.com Sat Feb 3 18:03:16 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net>; from wb6yru@aenet.net on Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 12:45:47AM -0800 References: <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> Message-ID: <20010203180316.A19590@shallowsky.com> Gary Mitchell writes: > I move that SJAA sets up a new remailer list, announce@sjaa.net, > for announcements and bulletins only and make the existing > sjaa@sjaa.net list open for club members to chat. The announce > list will be started with all the subscribers now on the sjaa > list (to save everyone from having to subscribe individually). > > At this time, I doubt the announce@sjaa.net list would have to > be moderated. You're probably right; with a name like "announce", the intention would be clear. Not a bad idea, assuming that Mojo doesn't mind hosting another list and someone is willing to volunteer to maintain it (I'm not going to vote for anything that involves pushing extra work on someone who hasn't volunteered for it). I don't see a danger of the discussion list turning into TAC as long as the reply-to doesn't force replies back to the list and as long as it has a clear charter of discussing SJAA club events (i.e. keep the list pretty much as it is now but make it clear that members are welcome to post to it, it's not announcements only as some people think the current list is). ...Akkana From bill at nineplanets.org Sat Feb 3 22:11:37 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA Mail Archive has True Email Addresses! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 2/3/01 5:41 PM, Michael Koop at koopm@best.com wrote: > Ouch! > Bill A., > Please remove all true email addresses from the archive. I don't know how to do that. Anyone know? > All the people who were complaining about spam would have a reason once > some web crawlers fetched them from the archive page. I haven't had any complaints. > Another possibility would be to make this a members only page. don't know how to do that, either. > Also, you may want to break up the archive to "yearly" sections. We do not > have the volume like the TAC list needing monthly divisions. Do you really think that's necessary? The whole thing is pretty small. Someday when it gets out of hand I'll just delete the old stuff. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From jvn at sjpc.org Sat Feb 3 22:17:19 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA Mail Archive has True Email Addresses! References: Message-ID: <3A7CF3EF.53F@sjpc.org> Bill Arnett wrote: > > on 2/3/01 5:41 PM, Michael Koop at koopm@best.com wrote: > > > Ouch! > > Bill A., > > Please remove all true email addresses from the archive. > > I don't know how to do that. Anyone know? Ask Mark Wagner. The names are not on the web version of the TAC messages, and spam avoidance is the reason. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From wb6yru at aenet.net Sun Feb 4 04:21:27 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <20010203180316.A19590@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3A7D4947.17E0@aenet.net> Akkana wrote: > > Gary Mitchell writes: > > I move that SJAA sets up a new remailer list, announce@sjaa.net, > > for announcements and bulletins only and make the existing > > sjaa@sjaa.net list open for club members to chat. The announce > > list will be started with all the subscribers now on the sjaa > > list (to save everyone from having to subscribe individually). > > > > At this time, I doubt the announce@sjaa.net list would have to > > be moderated. > > You're probably right; with a name like "announce", the intention > would be clear. Not a bad idea, assuming that Mojo doesn't mind > hosting another list and someone is willing to volunteer to maintain > it (I'm not going to vote for anything that involves pushing extra > work on someone who hasn't volunteered for it). > > I don't see a danger of the discussion list turning into TAC as > long as the reply-to doesn't force replies back to the list and > as long as it has a clear charter of discussing SJAA club events > (i.e. keep the list pretty much as it is now but make it clear that > members are welcome to post to it, it's not announcements only as > some people think the current list is). If the sjaa list is to be for discussions, I don't see a problem with the reply-to going back to the list (just like this one). However, this should *not* be the case for the announce list. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Sun Feb 4 04:42:01 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com References: Message-ID: <3A7D4E19.1A60@aenet.net> Bill Arnett wrote: > > on 2/3/01 1:40 PM, Gary Mitchell at wb6yru@aenet.net wrote: > > >... I just looked at our web site where the usage is > > described...It doesn't say anything about announcements only, > > quite the opposite. > > It says "...the intent is that this list be focused on topics specifically > relating to SJAA such as SJAA-sponsored events..." > > That is supposed to exclude general chat. But it doesn't say that, and I wouldn't make that interpretation. > The policy is also made clear in > the initial "welcome" message that each member gets when they subscribe. That welcome message doesn't say anything about it, but it does have another link (not the same as above). I don't browse on the same machine I get this e-mail from, so I'll check it later. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Sun Feb 4 04:54:52 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <3A7C4560.C1BC2914@znet.com> <3A7C7F93.1E51@sjpc.org> Message-ID: <3A7D511C.6AA5@aenet.net> Jim Van Nuland wrote: > > Dave North wrote: > > > > Gary: >>I move that SJAA sets up a new remailer list,<< > > > > You know what? I don't know if we need a second to start the clock > > ticking on discussion! > > What's the rule? > > Maybe the subject line should reflect that a specific motion / topic > is under discussion? I'll change it... By the way, I'm starting to get e-mail privately responding to my announcement (to sjaa) that this proposal is underway. All positive so far, except the one from Bill Arnett. Gary From north at znet.com Sun Feb 4 10:13:23 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com References: Message-ID: <3A7D9BC3.340BD9C4@znet.com> > How many actually figured out the correct way? bill: >>Only a few :-( << Perhaps it would be useful to add a "bottom line" unsubscribe instruction ala shallowsky. Not that it works all the time, but it probably does help. d From Treasurer at SJAA.net Sun Feb 4 00:59:17 2001 From: Treasurer at SJAA.net (Mark Taylor) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA Mail Archive has True Email Addresses! In-Reply-To: <3A7CF3EF.53F@sjpc.org> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010204000031.026d5190@indigoskies.com> At 10:17 PM 2/3/2001 -0800, Jim Van Nuland wrote: >Bill Arnett wrote: > > on 2/3/01 5:41 PM, Michael Koop at koopm@best.com wrote: > > > Please remove all true email addresses from the archive. > > > > I don't know how to do that. Anyone know? > > Ask Mark Wagner. The names are not on the web version of the TAC >messages, and spam avoidance is the reason. Don't bother; the solution for mailman+pipermail (what we use) will not be the same as for majordomo+hypermail (what tac uses). Besides I doubt anyone would want to support a cron/sed hack like the one used by tac; it's klugey and brittle. However, I do agree that we should first try to hide the addresses (which may turn out to be a built-in feature of pipermail), and if we can't do that then perhaps we should simply turn off the pipermail archive. I like having an archive to refer to, but it's not worth getting on spam lists for. Every address I've ever had posted on a web page gets a ton of spam; these jokers DO harvest addresses. On other related topics: Personally, I don't understand all the hoopla in the recent firestorm of emails about lists, charters, etc. 1) The people wanting off the list are clearly internet UN-savvy. Many can't find the club's web page, and those that do can't follow the directions for subscription self-management. Given that I find it no surprise that these folks can't handle more than 2 emails in a day. I say let 'em go in peace; it's not as if they are quitting the club, and they'll still have access to most of the same info through the Ephemeris and hotline (which they are probably more comfortable with anyway) 2) If some members want an SJAA-oriented discussion list (which I believe they do) then that's a pretty good case for having one around. I don't see such as list as being redundant to tac -- it would be different in many ways. My feeling is that *if* we have the ability to "keep two lists as cheapy as one" I don't know why we wouldn't *want* to do so for that portion of our membership that wants something smaller, and more sjaa-oriented than tac. 3) IMO this board is too often "vote happy"; I don't like voting for things that people are free to do (or not do) on their own. What good is "passing" a discussion list if nobody wants to run one, and how futile is voting one down if somebody wants to start "SJAA-discussion" on their own? That said, I believe "#2" above will work itself out appropriately no matter what the board thinks. I guess we could always wait to see what happens, and then pass a vote to "do it that way" if it'll make anyone feel better. Mark From bill at nineplanets.org Sun Feb 4 12:42:43 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com In-Reply-To: <3A7D4E19.1A60@aenet.net> Message-ID: on 2/4/01 4:42 AM, Gary Mitchell at wb6yru@aenet.net wrote: >... > But it doesn't say that, and I wouldn't make that interpretation. > >> The policy is also made clear in >> the initial "welcome" message that each member gets when they subscribe. > > That welcome message doesn't say anything about it, but it > does have another link (not the same as above). I don't browse > on the same machine I get this e-mail from, so I'll check it later. The welcome message says "...[this] is not a general discussion list." I'll fix the www page to explicitly include that text. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From bill at nineplanets.org Sun Feb 4 12:44:44 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com In-Reply-To: <3A7D9BC3.340BD9C4@znet.com> Message-ID: on 2/4/01 10:13 AM, Dave North at north@znet.com wrote: >> How many actually figured out the correct way? > > bill: >>Only a few :-( << > > Perhaps it would be useful to add a "bottom line" unsubscribe > instruction I hate that. It's almost spam. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From bill at nineplanets.org Sun Feb 4 12:47:29 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A7D511C.6AA5@aenet.net> Message-ID: on 2/4/01 4:54 AM, Gary Mitchell at wb6yru@aenet.net wrote: > By the way, I'm starting to get e-mail privately responding > to my announcement (to sjaa) that this proposal is underway. > All positive so far... Of course. Those who don't care or like the status quo don't bother to say anything. BTW, how do you propose that we initialize the new lists? Should I add all current members to BOTH lists? That would almost certainly result in a flurry of complaints from people who don't even want the "welcome" messages. Or just one of the lists? But how then would I know which one each person wants? -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From bill at nineplanets.org Sun Feb 4 12:57:53 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA Mail Archive has True Email Addresses! In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010204000031.026d5190@indigoskies.com> Message-ID: on 2/4/01 12:59 AM, Mark Taylor at Treasurer@sjaa.net wrote: >... the solution for mailman+pipermail (what we use) will > not be the same as for majordomo+hypermail (what tac uses). SJAA is at SEDS and uses majordomo (like TAC); SJAABOARD is at whiteoaks. We could move SJAA but that would be a hassle for all our members. > Besides > I doubt anyone would want to support a cron/sed hack like the one > used by tac; it's klugey and brittle. Right. > However, I do agree that we should first try to hide the addresses (which > may turn out to be a built-in feature of pipermail), and if we can't do > that then perhaps we should simply turn off the pipermail archive. I > like having an archive to refer to, but it's not worth getting on spam > lists for. Every address I've ever had posted on a web page gets a ton > of spam; these jokers DO harvest addresses. I don't think it's worth the hassle involved in changing the list address. > On other related topics: Personally, I don't understand all the > hoopla in the recent firestorm of emails about lists, charters, etc. It always pains the listowner when someone leaves. But in reality it's no big deal... > 1) The people wanting off the list are clearly internet UN-savvy. Maybe not. Those who are Net-savvy know that all this is no big deal and just quietly delete the messages. We only hear from the unsavvy ones. >...I say let 'em go in peace Right. A very good attitude since we have little other choice :-) > 2) If some members want an SJAA-oriented discussion list (which I > believe they do) then that's a pretty good case for having one around. > I don't see such as list as being redundant to tac Seems completely redundant to me. SJAA is for SJAA business and announcements, TAC is for astro-chat. What purpose is served by having another chat list? It just reduces the pool of chatters in each list. > 3) IMO this board is too often "vote happy"... Well, it seems to me that the board should approve the creation of a mailing list specifically oriented toward SJAA. I suppose we couldn't prevent someone from doing so but I doubt anyone would try to force the issue. I think another list is a bad idea and it will take some considerable convincing to get me to agree to run it. But if someone else want's to do it.... -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From jvn at sjpc.org Sun Feb 4 23:00:53 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A7E4FA5.6E89@sjpc.org> Bill Arnett wrote: > BTW, how do you propose that we initialize the new lists? Should I add all > current members to BOTH lists? That would almost certainly result in a > flurry of complaints from people who don't even want the "welcome" messages. > Or just one of the lists? Easy. The existing (recently truncated) list becomes the chat list; those who don't want chat have already removed themselves. The remailer should insert a Reply-To header back to the list. Not sure if new members should be added without explicit permission. Another check box on the membership form? For the announce-only list, the entire membership gets added to the above chat list, and duplicates removed. This retains those people who are not presently members but who have asked to be on the list, or chose to remain even if they've left the area, those with two addresses, etc. The remailer should insert a Reply-To with the originator's address (can that be done?). New members would be added to this list if they provide an e-address, without need to ask. AND, the hello message must make it clear: (1) that this is a new list; (2) that the list is NOT chat, is for official announcements and reminders of SJAA events, about 5 to 10 a month; and (3) how to opt out if even that traffic is not wanted. Maybe even a click-here to opt out, if that's possible. I suppose the announce list should be closed, with fastpath authority for board members. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From jvn at sjpc.org Sun Feb 4 23:17:12 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA Mail Archive has True Email Addresses! References: Message-ID: <3A7E5378.17D2@sjpc.org> Bill Arnett wrote: > > Besides > > I doubt anyone would want to support a cron/sed hack like the one > > used by tac; it's klugey and brittle. It's also Y2K incompatible. The dates are fudged, and last week I thought it was two years out of date. (I had heard the word "brittle" applied to software. I like it (the word, not the software)!) > I don't think it's worth the hassle involved in changing the list address. No, leave it at SEDS. As far as archive, goes, don't do it; that also eliminates the need to hide the addresses. We may wish to archive the announce list, but that might not need to be public. > > 2) If some members want an SJAA-oriented discussion list (which I > > believe they do) then that's a pretty good case for having one around. > > I don't see such as list as being redundant to tac > > Seems completely redundant to me. SJAA is for SJAA business and > announcements, TAC is for astro-chat. What purpose is served by having > another chat list? It just reduces the pool of chatters in each list. That might be desirable. TAC is too big, even its core members agree. Mark asked that people send replies to the list only if it is relevant, but I still see dozens of "nice pictures", "Thanks", all with the whole message quoted. TAC is looking to set up a CCD list to remove that traffic from the main list. I'd like that myself. If the list could by magic keep traffic low, it'd be welcome by many of those quitters ///// oops members who recently fled the list. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From jvn at sjpc.org Sun Feb 4 23:52:59 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA Mail Archive has True Email Addresses! References: <3A7E5378.17D2@sjpc.org> Message-ID: <3A7E5BDB.576C@sjpc.org> Jim Van Nuland wrote: > It's also Y2K incompatible. The dates are fudged, and last week I > thought it was two years out of date. (I had heard the word "brittle" > applied to software. I like it (the word, not the software)!) ARRRRG! I'd intended to say that I had NOT before heard the term "brittle" in that setting. -- Jim Van Nuland, winning last place in the proof-reading contest. From bill at nineplanets.org Mon Feb 5 00:12:04 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A7E4FA5.6E89@sjpc.org> Message-ID: on 2/4/01 11:00 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: >... > The existing (recently truncated) list becomes the chat list... > > For the announce-only list, the entire membership gets added to the > above chat list... That way 200+ people would be on both lists. 150+ of them don't want to be on another chat list so they would have to unsubscribe. Why should we put them to all that trouble for the benefit of the few who want to chat but not with the TACyones? If TAC has gotten too big the solution is (1) not our problem and (2) easily fixed along the lines already being proposed (ie split it by areas of interest) but (3) made worse not better by an additional general chat list. >...As far as archive, goes, don't do it... Given that I've had zero complaints (aside from Mike's noticing that there MIGHT be problems in the future) I don't see much reason to change. OTOH, I had forgotten that the archive even exists. I wonder if any one else would notice if I got rid of it? -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From jvn at sjpc.org Mon Feb 5 01:40:52 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A7E7524.695D@sjpc.org> Bill Arnett wrote: > > on 2/4/01 11:00 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: > > >... > > The existing (recently truncated) list becomes the chat list... > > > > For the announce-only list, the entire membership gets added to the > > above chat list... > > That way 200+ people would be on both lists. No, no. I explained it badly. The existing list becomes chat, along with its existing subscribers. The NEW list is initialized with the combination of old + entire membership. It seems likely that few would want to unsubscribe to the limited, controlled announcement list. New members would be added to the announce-only list, especially if it was moderated. The hello message could describe the chat list and tell how to subscribe. > >...As far as archive, goes, don't do it... > > Given that I've had zero complaints (aside from Mike's noticing that there > MIGHT be problems in the future) I don't see much reason to change. OTOH, I > had forgotten that the archive even exists. I wonder if any one else would > notice if I got rid of it? I was not aware that there is an archive. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From wb6yru at aenet.net Mon Feb 5 03:28:00 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com References: Message-ID: <3A7E8E40.6AC2@aenet.net> Bill Arnett wrote: > Gary Mitchell wrote: > >> The policy is also made clear in > >> the initial "welcome" message that each member gets when they subscribe. > > > > That welcome message doesn't say anything about it, but it > > does have another link (not the same as above). I don't browse > > on the same machine I get this e-mail from, so I'll check it later. > > The welcome message says "...[this] is not a general discussion list." The welcome message I got doesn't say that at all. Below is what I got, in it's entirety. > I'll > fix the www page to explicitly include that text. > That may be a wasted effort, depending on the vote. Gary ------------------- -- Welcome to the sjaa mailing list! Please save this message for future reference. Thank you. If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, you can send mail to with the following command in the body of your email message: unsubscribe sjaa or from another account, besides wb6yru@aenet.net: unsubscribe sjaa wb6yru@aenet.net If you ever need to get in contact with the owner of the list, (if you have trouble unsubscribing, or have questions about the list itself) send email to . This is the general rule for most mailing lists when you need to contact a human. Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to, in case you don't already have it: see From wb6yru at aenet.net Mon Feb 5 03:41:18 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A7E915E.55C3@aenet.net> Bill Arnett wrote: > BTW, how do you propose that we initialize the new lists? Should I add all > current members to BOTH lists? That would almost certainly result in a > flurry of complaints from people who don't even want the "welcome" messages. > Or just one of the lists? But how then would I know which one each person > wants? I covered that in my initial proposal. Here it is again: > I move that SJAA sets up a new remailer list, announce@sjaa.net, > for announcements and bulletins only and make the existing > sjaa@sjaa.net list open for club members to chat. The announce > list will be started with all the subscribers now on the sjaa > list (to save everyone from having to subscribe individually). If someone can't even stand to receive a welcome message, I wouldn't worry about that. That type would complain about almost anything that shows up from the list. If you are being bothered by unsubscribe requests, then I suggest posting those instructions to the list and leave them to it. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Mon Feb 5 03:54:11 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA Mail Archive has True Email Addresses! References: Message-ID: <3A7E9463.1043@aenet.net> Bill Arnett wrote: > > on 2/4/01 12:59 AM, Mark Taylor at Treasurer@sjaa.net wrote: > > 2) If some members want an SJAA-oriented discussion list (which I > > believe they do) then that's a pretty good case for having one around. > > I don't see such as list as being redundant to tac > > Seems completely redundant to me. SJAA is for SJAA business and > announcements, TAC is for astro-chat. What purpose is served by having > another chat list? It just reduces the pool of chatters in each list. It's like compairing a yacht that we own to a cruise liner we don't own. A sjaa chat remailer would be more focused, more local, and would have a lighter traffic load. Gary From akkana at shallowsky.com Mon Feb 5 11:06:38 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA Mail Archive has True Email Addresses! In-Reply-To: ; from bill@nineplanets.org on Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 10:11:37PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20010205110638.A77155@shallowsky.com> I'll join those who have asked that you turn off the archives until the "true email address" problem is fixed. I try to keep my "real" email address off of web pages, and would not have used my real address to subscribe to the SJAA list if I'd known that it was being archived with full addresses. Bill Arnett writes: > > Ouch! > > Bill A., > > Please remove all true email addresses from the archive. > > I don't know how to do that. Anyone know? Seds is a Unix machine, right? If so, I can give you a perl script that will change the current addresses (at least do something like remove the mailto links and replace "@" with " @ " or " -at- ", or replace @asdf with nothing so it'll look like it's from koopm or akkana or whatever without a hostname). Basically, if it's in one or more files in one flat directory, something like this, run in the directory, would probably do it: perl -p -i'.bak' -e "s/@[a-zA-z\-.]*//g;" * (I haven't tested that, you probably should test on a couple of files before running it on the whole directory, or send me a couple of archive files and I'll test it). That would cover the existing files. As for future archives, obviously it depends on what software you're using to make the archives. If it's built into majordomo, then Mojo's probably right that it's a waste of effort to do anything now if it's going to change over to mailman. > > All the people who were complaining about spam would have a reason once > > some web crawlers fetched them from the archive page. > > I haven't had any complaints. Evidently nobody knew about it. I didn't even know we had archives of that list. You've had complaints now. :-) > > Another possibility would be to make this a members only page. > > don't know how to do that, either. Would have to password protect it, and then anyone who wanted to use it would have to remember a password. Sounds like a hassle. > > Also, you may want to break up the archive to "yearly" sections. We do not > > have the volume like the TAC list needing monthly divisions. > > Do you really think that's necessary? The whole thing is pretty small. > Someday when it gets out of hand I'll just delete the old stuff. No preference here. ...Akkana From akkana at shallowsky.com Mon Feb 5 11:31:07 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A7D4947.17E0@aenet.net>; from wb6yru@aenet.net on Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 04:21:27AM -0800 References: <3A7CF3EF.53F@sjpc.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010204000031.026d5190@indigoskies.com> <3A7D9BC3.340BD9C4@znet.com> <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <20010203180316.A19590@shallowsky.com> <3A7D4947.17E0@aenet.net> Message-ID: <20010205113107.B77155@shallowsky.com> Bill Arnett writes: > BTW, how do you propose that we initialize the new lists? Should I add all > current members to BOTH lists? That would almost certainly result in a > flurry of complaints from people who don't even want the "welcome" messages. > Or just one of the lists? But how then would I know which one each person > wants? I'll break with what everyone else said; I'll say that the announce list is more important, and the current list membership should turn into the announce list. Most people on the current list thought they were on an announce list anyway. The discussion list, OTOH, should be opt-in, not opt-out; post an announcement on the annouce list that the discussion list has been created, and let people choose to join or not. > Seems completely redundant to me. SJAA is for SJAA business and > announcements, TAC is for astro-chat. What purpose is served by having > another chat list? It just reduces the pool of chatters in each list. Two reasons: 1. We could make it low traffic/high signal. TAC's signal to noise is so low that I'm amazed that anyone who doesn't have a job sitting in front of a computer would even consider being on it. 2. It's for SJAA club chat, not general astro chat. "Who's going to Houge tonight?" "Could we consider having Joe Blow as a speaker?" "I really like the new astro class format; could we have a class on XYZ?" "Does someone have the NASA URL the speaker mentioned at the last meeting?" "As a member, I'd like to see us spending energy on X, and I'd like to volunteer to help get that started -- anyone want to help?" I can think of lots of great uses for a club list, most of which would get lost (or perhaps get flamed) on TAC. Jim Van Nuland writes: > For the announce-only list, the entire membership gets added to the > above chat list, and duplicates removed. This retains those people who While that's tempting, I worry that there might be members who will be pissed off that they've already removed themselves once, and now suddenly SJAA is sending them another unwanted list! How do you feel if you tell a spammer not to send you something, and they stop for a while, then they start up again? I know we don't see ourselves as spammers; but someone who's already tried to opt out of our list might see us that way (some spammers don't see themselves as spammers either). > That might be desirable. TAC is too big, even its core members > agree. Mark asked that people send replies to the list only if it is > relevant, but I still see dozens of "nice pictures", "Thanks", all with > the whole message quoted. Because that's always firmly been the culture of TAC, greatly encouraged by Mark and others on the list until quite recently, and pointing reply-to back to the list reinforces that. If you make it easy to post replies and really hard to send private replies, then it should be no surprise that most people send everything to the list whether it's relevant to the list or not. Of course it's full of "Nice posting", "Nice seeing you last night", and "Oops, I meant that last posting to be private". Also, TAC has no charter -- it has always been for pretty much anything anyone wants to talk about, so nothing is off-topic. ...Akkana From bill at nineplanets.org Mon Feb 5 15:07:32 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com In-Reply-To: <3A7E8E40.6AC2@aenet.net> Message-ID: on 2/5/01 3:28 AM, Gary Mitchell at wb6yru@aenet.net wrote: >... >> The welcome message says "...[this] is not a general discussion list." > > The welcome message I got doesn't say that at all. Below is > what I got, in it's entirety... I guess you were put on the list before I added that part of the message. It's there now, I just checked. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From north at znet.com Mon Feb 5 15:18:50 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <3A7CF3EF.53F@sjpc.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010204000031.026d5190@indigoskies.com> <3A7D9BC3.340BD9C4@znet.com> <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <20010203180316.A19590@shallowsky.com> <3A7D4947.17E0@aenet.net> <20010205113107.B77155@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3A7F34DA.F0602FFF@znet.com> Akkana: >>I'll break with what everyone else said; I'll say that the announce list is more important, and the current list membership should turn into the announce list.<< I agree. It's obvious, really. >>Most people on the current list thought they were on an announce list anyway.<< Right. >>The discussion list, OTOH, should be opt-in, not opt-out; post an announcement on the annouce list that the discussion list has been created, and let people choose to join or not.<< Very, very right. Under no circumstances should we, or anyone, autosubscribe a bunch of people to a (potentially) high-traffic noisemaker. Dave From bill at nineplanets.org Mon Feb 5 15:26:46 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A7E7524.695D@sjpc.org> Message-ID: on 2/5/01 1:40 AM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: > Bill Arnett wrote: >> >> on 2/4/01 11:00 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: >> >>> ... >>> The existing (recently truncated) list becomes the chat list... >>> >>> For the announce-only list, the entire membership gets added to the >>> above chat list... >> >> That way 200+ people would be on both lists. > > No, no. I explained it badly. The existing list becomes chat, along > with its existing subscribers. That's 200+, a large majority of our members > The NEW list is initialized with the > combination of old + entire membership. That's maybe 300 most of whom are included above. > It seems likely that few would > want to unsubscribe to the limited, controlled announcement list. But all but a few would want to unsub from the chat list. on 2/5/01 11:31 AM, Akkana at akkana@shallowsky.com wrote: > ... the announce > list is more important, and the current list membership should turn > into the announce list. Most people on the current list thought they > were on an announce list anyway. That is pretty much what we have now, if people pay attention to the charter. So it seems to me that if we take your way of thinking the main result is creating a new chat list. > The discussion list, OTOH, should be > opt-in, not opt-out; post an announcement on the annouce list that the > discussion list has been created, and let people choose to join or > not. Yeah. And I would predict that no more than a dozen or two would subscribe to it; mostly those who have a beef with TAC for some reason. >> Seems completely redundant to me. SJAA is for SJAA business and >> announcements, TAC is for astro-chat. What purpose is served by having >> another chat list? It just reduces the pool of chatters in each list. > > Two reasons: > 1. We could make it low traffic/high signal. TAC's signal to noise is > so low that I'm amazed that anyone who doesn't have a job sitting in > front of a computer would even consider being on it. And how would we manage to have a higher S/N ratio? That pretty much comes down to your second point: > 2. It's for SJAA club chat, not general astro chat. "Who's going to > Houge tonight?" "Could we consider having Joe Blow as a speaker?" > "I really like the new astro class format; could we have a class > on XYZ?" "Does someone have the NASA URL the speaker mentioned at > the last meeting?" "As a member, I'd like to see us spending energy > on X, and I'd like to volunteer to help get that started -- anyone > want to help?" I can think of lots of great uses for a club list, > most of which would get lost (or perhaps get flamed) on TAC. That's the current SJAA list! And there's so little traffic that most are happy until yet another discussion about the list itself gets going. :-( on 2/5/01 3:54 AM, Gary Mitchell at wb6yru@aenet.net wrote: > Bill Arnett wrote: >> >> on 2/4/01 12:59 AM, Mark Taylor at Treasurer@sjaa.net wrote: >>> 2) If some members want an SJAA-oriented discussion list (which I >>> believe they do) then that's a pretty good case for having one around. >>> I don't see such as list as being redundant to tac >> >> Seems completely redundant to me. SJAA is for SJAA business and >> announcements, TAC is for astro-chat. What purpose is served by having >> another chat list? It just reduces the pool of chatters in each list. > > It's like compairing a yacht that we own to a cruise liner we > don't own. Oh boy! Now we can start an analogy war :) My "contribution": It's like a CNN and MSNBC, neither of which is worth much except on rare occasions. > A sjaa chat remailer would be more focused, more > local, and would have a lighter traffic load. The whole point of a chat list is to show off how smart you are. Or if you're very lucky to get some useful advice. A smaller list just means that fewer people get to know how smart you are or you get less useful advice. Suppose you're thinking of going to the Peak but only if there will be a critical mass of people there. If you post to only one of the lists you won't get an accurate answer (you won't anyway, but the newbie doesn't know that). So you cleverly subscribe to both lists and post the same thing twice. :-( -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From bill at nineplanets.org Mon Feb 5 15:34:23 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA Mail Archive has True Email Addresses! In-Reply-To: <20010205110638.A77155@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: on 2/5/01 11:06 AM, Akkana at akkana@shallowsky.com wrote: > I'll join those who have asked that you turn off the archives until > the "true email address" problem is fixed. OK. > > Seds is a Unix machine, right? Yeah, but I'm not root or the owner of the mail directories. I'll ask the postmaster to delete the archives. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From north at znet.com Mon Feb 5 15:37:47 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A7F3948.8ADFB68C@znet.com> Bill: >> So it seems to me... the main result is creating a new chat list.<< That would be correct. >>I would predict that no more than a dozen or two would subscribe to it; mostly those who have a beef with TAC for some reason.<< Though I agree, I see little harm in such a result (in other woids, it don't matter much). >>there's so little traffic that most are happy until yet another discussion about the list itself gets going.<< My original point. But if there is sufficient momentum to create one or more additional lists, I don't find that particularly troubling. Dave From bill at nineplanets.org Mon Feb 5 15:44:13 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A7F3948.8ADFB68C@znet.com> Message-ID: on 2/5/01 3:37 PM, Dave North at north@znet.com wrote: > ... if there is sufficient momentum to create one or > more additional lists, I don't find that particularly troubling. Well, "troubling" might be too strong. The popularity of creationism its support by the current dodo in the White House is troubling. Another chat list with a charter overlapping that of TAC is not troubling but it's not a good thing, either. See my previous messages. I'm just trying to in my tiny way to maintain a little sanity on the Net. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From jvn at sjpc.org Mon Feb 5 16:27:04 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <3A7CF3EF.53F@sjpc.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010204000031.026d5190@indigoskies.com> <3A7D9BC3.340BD9C4@znet.com> <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <20010203180316.A19590@shallowsky.com> <3A7D4947.17E0@aenet.net> <20010205113107.B77155@shallowsky.com> <3A7F34DA.F0602FFF@znet.com> Message-ID: <3A7F44D8.4B23@sjpc.org> Dave North wrote: > > Akkana: >>I'll break with what everyone else said; I'll say that the > announce list is more important, and the current list membership should > turn into the announce list.<< > > I agree. It's obvious, really. > > >>Most people on the current list thought they were on an announce list anyway.<< Sigh. I thought I'd explained it well enough. I'll try again. The people on the current list are the ones that are willing to be on a chat list. So we use that group of names for the chat list. Its name is SJAA and leave it at that. > >>The discussion list, OTOH, should be opt-in, not opt-out; post an > announcement on the announce list that the discussion list has been > created, and let people choose to join or not.<< See above: they have already tacitly agreed by not unsubscribing last week. Simply post to it, saying that there is a new charter and this list is about to become more busy. Include instructions to opt out. Mention that there will be a new announce only list which will include everybody. Then field the feedback. Now, turning to the new list: who do you start with?? My answer is: (old list) + (all members) - duplicates. New name such as SJAA-ANNOUNCE. Prime it with a note that it will be low volume and closed, and replies should go to the poster. Include an apology for the noise and that they should not fear staying aboard this new list. > Very, very right. Under no circumstances should we, or anyone, > autosubscribe a bunch of people to a (potentially) high-traffic noisemaker. Whomever has stayed on the present list will presumably tolerate the chat. But we MUST autosubscribe *everyone* to the NEW announce list, which will be low traffic as it probably should be closed with fastpath for board members and editor. I hope I've explained it clearly this time. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From sjaa at indigoskies.com Mon Feb 5 16:57:44 2001 From: sjaa at indigoskies.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A7F3948.8ADFB68C@znet.com> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010205164724.025d8418@indigoskies.com> At 03:37 PM 2/5/2001 -0800, Dave North wrote: >But if there is sufficient momentum to create one or >more additional lists, I don't find that particularly troubling. Precisely my point. And especially in this day of free "Yahoo clubs" (and Yahoo's recent acquisition/integration of e-groups) any SJAA member *or non-member* can choose to create an "sjaa-chat" list. Further, I can see folks creating an "sjaa-atming" group, even if it only has 3 or 4 people in it, in hopes that it will lure new people. I really believe it doesn't matter what the board votes on, because such lists will be created if people want to have them. I think it would be "nice" if they were "officially sponsored"(whatever that means in the context of a free service) by SJAA, but that's really not necessary. The one thing I think the board *can* vote to do is to tighten up the sjaa@seds.org list to make it moderated, but that requires a willing volunteer's time to manage, and also slows down the timely delivery of announcements from most board members -- therefore this probably isn't a good idea. Simply reinforcing the intent of the list to people is probably sufficient. Mark From akkana at shallowsky.com Mon Feb 5 17:01:03 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A7F44D8.4B23@sjpc.org>; from jvn@sjpc.org on Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:27:04PM -0800 References: <3A7D9BC3.340BD9C4@znet.com> <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <20010203180316.A19590@shallowsky.com> <3A7D4947.17E0@aenet.net> <20010205113107.B77155@shallowsky.com> <3A7F34DA.F0602FFF@znet.com> <3A7F44D8.4B23@sjpc.org> Message-ID: <20010205170102.P77155@shallowsky.com> Jim Van Nuland writes: > The people on the current list are the ones that are willing to be on > a chat list. So we use that group of names for the chat list. Its name > is SJAA and leave it at that. [ ... ] > See above: they have already tacitly agreed by not unsubscribing last > week. Simply post to it, saying that there is a new charter and this Not so. I didn't see any notice last week that the current SJAA list was now going to become a chat list with ongoing discussions. The people who unsubscribed did so out of panic when one member posted a bunch of useless drivel over the course of a few hours. I'll bet money that there are plenty of people still on the list who are happy with it the way it is now, but would not stay if it became a higher traffic chat list. Agreed, the current list's charter never said that it was announce only, so it's not like we're suddenly changing the rules, just clarifying them. Still, I'm uncomfortable about auto-subscribing a lot of people to an announce list after they just told us to take us off another list; that just sounds too much like spam tactics even if *we* think our announcements are too interesting to miss. > I hope I've explained it clearly this time. I think you were clear, but I'm not sure you understood my point. I hope I've been clearer this time. ...Akkana From bill at nineplanets.org Mon Feb 5 18:17:06 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A7F44D8.4B23@sjpc.org> Message-ID: on 2/5/01 4:27 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: > ... The people on the current list are the ones that are willing to be on > a chat list. I don't think so. I think most of them are hoping for a low volume SJAA related list and are willing to put up with a few bits of nonsense like we had last week so long as it doesn't happen very often. The few that can't stand even that are now gone. The ones that want more are also on TAC. > they have already tacitly agreed by not unsubscribing last > week. No, not at all. See above. I'm sure we would have MASSIVE unsubscribes if we changed the charter as is being recommended here. >... I hope I've explained it clearly this time. Yes, but we disagree about the meaning of the lack of action on the part of those remaining on the list. I say they're at least minimally net-savvy enough to know that this has mostly been a low traffic list and they expect it to return to that state. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From bill at nineplanets.org Mon Feb 5 18:20:38 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010205164724.025d8418@indigoskies.com> Message-ID: on 2/5/01 4:57 PM, Mark Taylor at sjaa@indigoskies.com wrote: >... The one thing I think the board *can* vote to do is to tighten up > the sjaa@seds.org list to make it moderated, but that requires a > willing volunteer's time to manage, and also slows down the timely > delivery of announcements from most board members -- therefore this > probably isn't a good idea. Simply reinforcing the intent of the > list to people is probably sufficient. I would be willing to be the moderator if that were deemed necessary. But I agree with Mark that it probably isn't. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From wb6yru at aenet.net Mon Feb 5 20:35:07 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <3A7CF3EF.53F@sjpc.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010204000031.026d5190@indigoskies.com> <3A7D9BC3.340BD9C4@znet.com> <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <20010203180316.A19590@shallowsky.com> <3A7D4947.17E0@aenet.net> <20010205113107.B77155@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3A7F7EFB.34AE@aenet.net> Akkana wrote: > > Bill Arnett writes: > > Seems completely redundant to me. SJAA is for SJAA business and > > announcements, TAC is for astro-chat. What purpose is served by having > > another chat list? It just reduces the pool of chatters in each list. > > Two reasons: > 1. We could make it low traffic/high signal. TAC's signal to noise is > so low that I'm amazed that anyone who doesn't have a job sitting in > front of a computer would even consider being on it. > > 2. It's for SJAA club chat, not general astro chat. "Who's going to > Houge tonight?" "Could we consider having Joe Blow as a speaker?" > "I really like the new astro class format; could we have a class > on XYZ?" "Does someone have the NASA URL the speaker mentioned at > the last meeting?" "As a member, I'd like to see us spending energy > on X, and I'd like to volunteer to help get that started -- anyone > want to help?" I can think of lots of great uses for a club list, > most of which would get lost (or perhaps get flamed) on TAC. Good examples, Akkana... You effectively put into words what I was thinking. > Jim Van Nuland writes: > > For the announce-only list, the entire membership gets added to the > > above chat list, and duplicates removed. This retains those people who > > While that's tempting, I worry that there might be members who will be > pissed off that they've already removed themselves once, and now > suddenly SJAA is sending them another unwanted list! How do you feel > if you tell a spammer not to send you something, and they stop for a > while, then they start up again? I know we don't see ourselves as > spammers; but someone who's already tried to opt out of our list might > see us that way (some spammers don't see themselves as spammers either). If this is a problem, perhaps the best way to go is copy everyone over to the announce list (since that's apparently what the sensitive folks thought they were on anyway) and clear the sjaa (chat) remailer. Then put a notice in the Ephemeris and on the new announce list that this has happend and anyone who wants on the sjaa chat remailer needs to subscribe. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Mon Feb 5 20:42:19 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com References: Message-ID: <3A7F80AB.2804@aenet.net> Bill Arnett wrote: > > Gary Mitchell wrote: > >> The welcome message says "...[this] is not a general discussion list." > > > > The welcome message I got doesn't say that at all. > > I guess you were put on the list before I added that part of the message. > It's there now, I just checked. Based on how this particular discussion was going, I should have guessed something like that had happened. So, this goes back to my original question: when was this decided? Couldn't have been too long ago. I don't recall ever hearing anything about it. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Mon Feb 5 20:54:16 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A7F8378.7561@aenet.net> Bill Arnett wrote: > > Jim Van Nuland wrote: > > It seems likely that few would > > want to unsubscribe to the limited, controlled announcement list. > > But all but a few would want to unsub from the chat list. Do you know this for a fact? It strikes me as being a very inflated guess. > The whole point of a chat list is to show off how smart you are. You've got a strange definition of a chat list. If I believed that, I'd never subscribe to one. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Mon Feb 5 21:08:18 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <3A7CF3EF.53F@sjpc.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010204000031.026d5190@indigoskies.com> <3A7D9BC3.340BD9C4@znet.com> <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <20010203180316.A19590@shallowsky.com> <3A7D4947.17E0@aenet.net> <20010205113107.B77155@shallowsky.com> <3A7F34DA.F0602FFF@znet.com> <3A7F44D8.4B23@sjpc.org> Message-ID: <3A7F86C2.3E5F@aenet.net> Jim Van Nuland wrote: > > >>The discussion list, OTOH, should be opt-in, not opt-out; post an > > announcement on the announce list that the discussion list has been > > created, and let people choose to join or not.<< > > See above: they have already tacitly agreed by not unsubscribing last > week. Simply post to it, saying that there is a new charter and this > list is about to become more busy. Include instructions to opt out. > Mention that there will be a new announce only list which will include > everybody. Then field the feedback. Works for me. > Now, turning to the new list: who do you start with?? My answer is: > (old list) + (all members) - duplicates. New name such as > SJAA-ANNOUNCE. Prime it with a note that it will be low volume and > closed, and replies should go to the poster. Include an apology for the > noise and that they should not fear staying aboard this new list. This works for me too. Except if "sjaa" is in the domain, is there a reason for having in the list name too? It's no biggie, just a personal preference to keep these things as concise as possible. :) > > Very, very right. Under no circumstances should we, or anyone, > > autosubscribe a bunch of people to a (potentially) high-traffic noisemaker. > > Whomever has stayed on the present list will presumably tolerate the > chat. But we MUST autosubscribe *everyone* to the NEW announce list, > which will be low traffic as it probably should be closed with fastpath > for board members and editor. Anyone who is on the existing list should be on the annuounce list. I agree with Jim. In this case it's not a question of subscribing people against their will or acting like a spammer who won't let you go. They're already subscribed to what they (some at least) thought was an announce list anyway. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Mon Feb 5 21:38:35 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <3A7D9BC3.340BD9C4@znet.com> <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <20010203180316.A19590@shallowsky.com> <3A7D4947.17E0@aenet.net> <20010205113107.B77155@shallowsky.com> <3A7F34DA.F0602FFF@znet.com> <3A7F44D8.4B23@sjpc.org> <20010205170102.P77155@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3A7F8DDB.3A8E@aenet.net> Akkana wrote: > > Jim Van Nuland writes: > > The people on the current list are the ones that are willing to be on > > a chat list. So we use that group of names for the chat list. Its name > > is SJAA and leave it at that. > [ ... ] > > See above: they have already tacitly agreed by not unsubscribing last > > week. Simply post to it, saying that there is a new charter and this > > Not so. I didn't see any notice last week that the current SJAA > list was now going to become a chat list with ongoing discussions. > The people who unsubscribed did so out of panic when one member > posted a bunch of useless drivel over the course of a few hours. > I'll bet money that there are plenty of people still on the list > who are happy with it the way it is now, but would not stay if it > became a higher traffic chat list. > > Agreed, the current list's charter never said that it was announce > only, so it's not like we're suddenly changing the rules, just > clarifying them. Still, I'm uncomfortable about auto-subscribing > a lot of people to an announce list after they just told us to take > us off another list; that just sounds too much like spam tactics > even if *we* think our announcements are too interesting to miss. I think everyone who was on the sjaa list before this all started should be copied over to the announce list. In the overall scheme of things, we are *not* a spamming commercial operation. This is an astronomy club with unpaid volunteers. We are making a good-faith effort to satisfy everyone's remailer preferences. This is just going to be a one-shot deal anyway. Any reasonable person should be able to see far enough past a few of unwanted emails to realise this. I don't think it's asking so much that they bear with us a little. It's not like they're being asked to give a kidney or anything. Gary From jvn at sjpc.org Mon Feb 5 23:16:03 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <3A7D9BC3.340BD9C4@znet.com> <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <20010203180316.A19590@shallowsky.com> <3A7D4947.17E0@aenet.net> <20010205113107.B77155@shallowsky.com> <3A7F34DA.F0602FFF@znet.com> <3A7F44D8.4B23@sjpc.org> <20010205170102.P77155@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3A7FA4B3.56@sjpc.org> Akkana wrote: [giant snip] >JVN: > I hope I've explained it clearly this time. > > I think you were clear, but I'm not sure you understood my point. > I hope I've been clearer this time. After reading all of today's mail, and one note not posted to this list, I will drop my request to turn the existing list into chat, and agree to form a new list for announce. The most important reason for my earlier suggestion was because the name of the present list is simply sjaa, and it'd be very nice if it was sjaa-announce. But instead, the new open list could be given a name such as sjaa-ask, or sjaa-open, etc. Yes, many on the present list would want to drop off. We can prime the announce list by copying over the present subscribers, then making the old list moderated. BILL: does majordomo have "fastpath" capability, which allows The Selected Few to post without waiting for the moderator? We *must* prevent another firestorm on that list. Come to think of it, since only We Few would need the actual address, maybe we could change its name to sjaa-announce. Bill? The new open list needs a better term than "chat", with the popular definition of idle talk. I presume the Reply-To header should be point to the originator, not the list?? The answer depends on what mail program is being used and its settings. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From jvn at sjpc.org Tue Feb 6 00:48:11 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010205164724.025d8418@indigoskies.com> Message-ID: <3A7FBA4B.5734@sjpc.org> Mark Taylor wrote: [snip] And especially in this day of free "Yahoo clubs" > (and Yahoo's recent acquisition/integration of e-groups) any SJAA > member *or non-member* can choose to create an "sjaa-chat" list. [snip] > I really believe it doesn't matter what the board votes on, because > such lists will be created if people want to have them. I think it > would be "nice" if they were "officially sponsored" (whatever that means > in the context of a free service) by SJAA, but that's really not > necessary. It certainly is necessary if they want this old grump to participate! No way do I put my address into that damn spam factory. I'm sure I'm not alone on this.... -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From bill at nineplanets.org Tue Feb 6 01:23:34 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A7FA4B3.56@sjpc.org> Message-ID: on 2/5/01 11:16 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: >... BILL: does majordomo have "fastpath" > capability, which allows The Selected Few to post without waiting for > the moderator? Not that I know of. But I'm not an expert. I'm sure there's some hack we might use. > We can prime the announce list by copying over the present subscribers Then most members would be subscribed to two lists. I expect that would piss off a good number of them. Can someone remind me of the pressing problem we have here that it's necessary to add further fuel to this fire now that it seems to have settled down? > We *must* prevent another firestorm on that list. Come > to think of it, since only We Few would need the actual address, maybe > we could change its name to sjaa-announce. Bill? Probably possible. Who cares if only a few will post? The only possibility I can see that wouldn't cause too much grief would be for us to simply create a new sjaa-chat list (which whatever non-pejorative name you like) to which no one would be automatically subscribed. This is clearly (IMHO) a bad thing but at least the badness would be limited to those who foolishly decided to subscribe themselves to it. No, it's worse than that because then everyone on TAC would be denied the privilege of reading the wisdom of those who subscribe only to sjaa-chat who might otherwise have subscribed to TAC. And Mark Wagner (and his acolytes) would be pissed that we were trying to encroach on "his" territory. No, if someone wants an alternative to TAC let them do it independently of SJAA. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From bill at nineplanets.org Tue Feb 6 01:27:08 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] CafromMd@aol.com In-Reply-To: <3A7F80AB.2804@aenet.net> Message-ID: on 2/5/01 8:42 PM, Gary Mitchell at wb6yru@aenet.net wrote: > Bill Arnett wrote: >> >> Gary Mitchell wrote: >>>> The welcome message says "...[this] is not a general discussion list." >>> >>> The welcome message I got doesn't say that at all. >> >> I guess you were put on the list before I added that part of the message. >> It's there now, I just checked. > > Based on how this particular discussion was going, I should have > guessed something like that had happened. So, this goes back to > my original question: when was this decided? Couldn't have been > too long ago. I don't recall ever hearing anything about it. It was always my intention for the SJAA list to be the way it is. Each time the issue came up I promised that SJAA would be a low-volume list dedicated only to SJAA club business. I don't remember when the change to the welcome message happened. Maybe it was to clarify things the last time this happened? Or maybe it was when we mass-subscribed a lot of members a few months back. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From mojo at whiteoaks.com Tue Feb 6 06:54:22 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A7F86C2.3E5F@aenet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Gary Mitchell wrote: > This works for me too. Except if "sjaa" is in the domain, is > there a reason for having in the list name too? It's no biggie, > just a personal preference to keep these things as concise as > possible. :) Unfortunately I need to make the name unique within my mail server, which hosts several different domains. For instance, I have two board lists -- SJAA and FPOA. Hence I have to qualify the list name. Note that I already have aliases under the sjaa.net domain that route mail to the seds mail server. Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From akkana at shallowsky.com Tue Feb 6 12:34:03 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A7F8378.7561@aenet.net>; from wb6yru@aenet.net on Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 08:54:16PM -0800 References: <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <20010203180316.A19590@shallowsky.com> <3A7D4947.17E0@aenet.net> <20010205113107.B77155@shallowsky.com> <3A7F34DA.F0602FFF@znet.com> <3A7F44D8.4B23@sjpc.org> <20010205170102.P77155@shallowsky.com> <3A7FA4B3.56@sjpc.org> <3A7F8378.7561@aenet.net> Message-ID: <20010206123403.D40443@shallowsky.com> Gary Mitchell writes: > Bill Arnett wrote: > > The whole point of a chat list is to show off how smart you are. > > You've got a strange definition of a chat list. If I believed > that, I'd never subscribe to one. I think Bill must have been grumpy when he wrote that -- at least, I've seen him on chat lists and he doesn't act like someone who's only there to show off how smart he is, or who thinks that that's the only reason other people are there. Jim Van Nuland writes: > BILL: does majordomo have "fastpath" > capability, which allows The Selected Few to post without waiting for > the moderator? We *must* prevent another firestorm on that list. Come (I'm not Bill, but) I'm fairly sure that moderation in majordono is done by including an Approved: header with a password. If the password were given out to board members plus other people who might have need to make timely announcements, that would solve the problem. > The new open list needs a better term than "chat", with the popular > definition of idle talk. sjaa-discussion? sjaa-programs? Jim Van Nuland writes, in response to Mart Taylor's mention of egroups and it being unneceesary for a new list to come out of sjaa.net: > It certainly is necessary if they want this old grump to participate! > No way do I put my address into that damn spam factory. I'm sure I'm > not alone on this.... You're not, but I haven't had any spam traceable to egroups (PAS has their list on egroups) and haven't heard of anyone else seeing any either. Admittedly, no one knows how that might change now that Yahoo has taken over. Bill Arnett writes: > > We can prime the announce list by copying over the present subscribers > > Then most members would be subscribed to two lists. I expect that would > piss off a good number of them. I'll reiterate that I *don't* think that the chat list should be primed with the current subscriber list. It should be opt-in. > Can someone remind me of the pressing problem we have here that it's > necessary to add further fuel to this fire now that it seems to have settled > down? Mostly, that everybody agrees an announce list would be useful, and quite a few people have also said that they'd like a chat list? > The only possibility I can see that wouldn't cause too much grief would be > for us to simply create a new sjaa-chat list (which whatever non-pejorative > name you like) to which no one would be automatically subscribed. This is > clearly (IMHO) a bad thing but at least the badness would be limited to > those who foolishly decided to subscribe themselves to it. Why is it bad, and why would people be foolish to subscribe to it? I'd certainly subscribe (boy, do I feel foolish :-). > No, it's worse > than that because then everyone on TAC would be denied the privilege of > reading the wisdom of those who subscribe only to sjaa-chat who might > otherwise have subscribed to TAC. If TAC people want to read about SJAA club business, on a relatively low-traffic list, they're welcome to subscribe (preferably after joining SJAA). > And Mark Wagner (and his acolytes) would > be pissed that we were trying to encroach on "his" territory. No, if Or he might be pissed if we didn't create a list, and encouraged club members to discuss club business on TAC. Or he might be happy to see another list for club-specific traffic so that TAC doesn't get cluttered up with it. Or he might think that what SJAA does is our own business. In any case, I don't think we should make the decision based on what we think Mark Wagner *might* think (though if he's reading this and wants to comment, I'll be glad to read his comments). ...Akkana From north at znet.com Tue Feb 6 13:44:42 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <20010203180316.A19590@shallowsky.com> <3A7D4947.17E0@aenet.net> <20010205113107.B77155@shallowsky.com> <3A7F34DA.F0602FFF@znet.com> <3A7F44D8.4B23@sjpc.org> <20010205170102.P77155@shallowsky.com> <3A7FA4B3.56@sjpc.org> <3A7F8378.7561@aenet.net> <20010206123403.D40443@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3A807049.B5AE7DF7@znet.com> akkana: >>In any case, I don't think we should make the decision based on what we think Mark Wagner *might* think<< That would probably even make sense to Mark. In conversation Friday night, he expressed some dismay to me that TAC was wandering far afield from simple observing-related matters. Therefore, I cannot imagine any objection he (or other tacites) might have to a list started by a club for members (or even open subscription). TAC itself is spawning lists even as we type. However, I personally feel no need for another new list. I do, however, feel with some security that this issue is unlikely to be resolved in email, and since the monthly meeting is only a few days away, I suspect our best move might involve having a fun gabfest about it on Saturday... d From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Feb 6 17:15:47 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <3A7D9BC3.340BD9C4@znet.com> <3A7B51E7.849533E1@whiteoaks.com> <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <20010203180316.A19590@shallowsky.com> <3A7D4947.17E0@aenet.net> <20010205113107.B77155@shallowsky.com> <3A7F34DA.F0602FFF@znet.com> <3A7F44D8.4B23@sjpc.org> <20010205170102.P77155@shallowsky.com> <3A7FA4B3.56@sjpc.org> Message-ID: <3A80A1C3.6E28@aenet.net> Jim Van Nuland wrote: > After reading all of today's mail, and one note not posted to this > list, I will drop my request to turn the existing list into chat, and > agree to form a new list for announce. Your request? I thought this was part of my original proposal. > We *must* prevent another firestorm on that list. Come > to think of it, since only We Few would need the actual address, maybe > we could change its name to sjaa-announce. Bill? If it would be technically easier to rename "sjaa" to "announce" and have the new list be for discussions, that would be fine with me. > The new open list needs a better term than "chat", with the popular > definition of idle talk. I presume the Reply-To header should be point > to the originator, not the list?? The answer depends on what mail > program is being used and its settings. Why not just call the discussion list "sjaa?" It's short, simple, general, yet specific to the club. If that's no good and neither is "chat," maybe "discuss." Actually, that address would sound correct when read: discuss@sjaa.net. Since it's to be for discussions, it seems to me the Reply-To should point back to the list. I've been on other discussion remailers that don't point back to the list and it's always a hastle. Half the people forget that they can't just hit reply and then there are a lot of reposts to get the group back up to speed. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Feb 6 17:31:18 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A80A566.F04@aenet.net> Morris Jones wrote: > > On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Gary Mitchell wrote: > > > This works for me too. Except if "sjaa" is in the domain, is > > there a reason for having in the list name too? It's no biggie, > > just a personal preference to keep these things as concise as > > possible. :) > > Unfortunately I need to make the name unique within my mail server, > which hosts several different domains. For instance, I have two > board lists -- SJAA and FPOA. Hence I have to qualify the list > name. Oh, well, in that case... I drop all my comments about these lists being called only "sjaa" and "announce." I assumed the domain name provided the needed uniqueness. Was I the only one that didn't know about this? Must be since everyone else has been calling the potential lists "sjaa-chat" or whatever. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Feb 6 17:56:55 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <3A7BC53B.81C@aenet.net> <20010203180316.A19590@shallowsky.com> <3A7D4947.17E0@aenet.net> <20010205113107.B77155@shallowsky.com> <3A7F34DA.F0602FFF@znet.com> <3A7F44D8.4B23@sjpc.org> <20010205170102.P77155@shallowsky.com> <3A7FA4B3.56@sjpc.org> <3A7F8378.7561@aenet.net> <20010206123403.D40443@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3A80AB67.1B9B@aenet.net> Akkana wrote: > I'll reiterate that I *don't* think that the chat list should be > primed with the current subscriber list. It should be opt-in. If you want to change my original proposal to include this, it's OK with me. > Bill Arnett writes: > > Can someone remind me of the pressing problem we have here that it's > > necessary to add further fuel to this fire now that it seems to have settled > > down? > > Mostly, that everybody agrees an announce list would be useful, > and quite a few people have also said that they'd like a chat list? > > > The only possibility I can see that wouldn't cause too much grief would be > > for us to simply create a new sjaa-chat list (which whatever non-pejorative > > name you like) to which no one would be automatically subscribed. This is > > clearly (IMHO) a bad thing but at least the badness would be limited to > > those who foolishly decided to subscribe themselves to it. > > Why is it bad, and why would people be foolish to subscribe to it? > I'd certainly subscribe (boy, do I feel foolish :-). I'd subscribe too. We fools have to stick together! ;) I would like to be on a *SJAA* remailer where I could talk to other SJAA members, without having to get swamped by the more general, non-club-specific TAC fire hose. Bill, why does this seem to be such a difficult concept for you? And while you're certainly entitled to your opinion, I for one don't appreciate being called foolish for wanting to be on such a remailer. Gary From jvn at sjpc.org Tue Feb 6 21:10:23 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A80D8BF.3674@sjpc.org> Gary Mitchell wrote: > > Jim Van Nuland wrote: > > After reading all of today's mail, and one note not posted to this > > list, I will drop my request to turn the existing list into chat, and > > agree to form a new list for announce. > > Your request? I thought this was part of my original proposal. Yes, it is. I was suggesting/requesting a particular series of steps. > Why not just call the discussion list "sjaa?" It's short, > simple, general, yet specific to the club. That's what the existing list is named, and it is to remain the announce list. > If that's no > good and neither is "chat," maybe "discuss." Actually, > that address would sound correct when read: discuss@sjaa.net. I like that. Dr.Mojo, will it fly in your airspace? > Since it's to be for discussions, it seems to me the Reply-To > should point back to the list. I've thought about that, and agree that the discuss list should reply back to the list. OTOH, the announce list must point back to the sender. That way, a question is sent to the person likely to be able to answer it. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From bill at nineplanets.org Wed Feb 7 00:54:03 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A80AB67.1B9B@aenet.net> Message-ID: on 2/6/01 5:56 PM, Gary Mitchell at wb6yru@aenet.net wrote: > ... I for one > don't appreciate being called foolish for wanting to be on such > a remailer. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply insult anyone. It's clear that we have very different ideas about how this might evolve. And, Akkana might have been right when she suggested I was not in a good mood when I wrote that. :-) Let's see if we can rescue the situation. Can one of you who thinks this is a good thing explain what the non-overlapping charters of the three lists in question (sjaa-announce, sjaa-chat and TAC) would be? And how to decide which of the last two should receive postings about various topics, eg, who's going to the Peak next weekend?, how do I collimate my new Dob?, my Naglers are better than your Plossls!, Rush says I can use all the exterior lights I want!, when's the next apparition of Comet Halley?. Gary suggests: > I would like to be on a *SJAA* remailer where I could talk to > other SJAA members, without having to get swamped by the more > general, non-club-specific TAC fire hose. It seems to be that none of the examples above are SJAA specific. I'm guessing that what Gary and many others want is a list just like TAC but simply with fewer postings. Right? We could certainly create such a list and keep it that way for a while. But it seems to me that either eventually one or the other of the lists would die or worse, lots of postings would go to both lists. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From north at znet.com Wed Feb 7 09:02:33 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A817FA8.9EAFE9DA@znet.com> Billa: >>I'm guessing that what Gary and many others want is a list just like TAC but simply with fewer postings. Right?<< That's pretty much what it sounds like. >>We could certainly create such a list and keep it that way for a while. But it seems to me that either eventually one or the other of the lists would die or worse, lots of postings would go to both lists.<< It would not surprise me to see them remain distinct. Though there is some overlap in the lists, the two memberships are distinctly different in outlook on many issues, and I suspect that would remain true for quite some time. Not important though; it's usually questionable policy to try to prevent an event because of what *might* happen -- this is done politically quite often, and seldom works out. If we have the technology, we can run the experiment. As to the announce nature of the SJAA list, the easiest way I know of to run it is to create a posting list (people allowed to post to it) and there is no need for moderation after that. The biggest hassle in such a setup is the process to allow postings -- I've never managed a majordomo list without root privileges, but even then you have to (a) put new names on the list as they come up and (b) delete names if the address fails or if the permission to post turned out to be a mistake. d From billosh at accesscom.com Wed Feb 7 12:45:05 2001 From: billosh at accesscom.com (William O'Shaughnessy) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Bill O will be absent at sjaa board mtg Message-ID: <200102072045.MAA14715@shell.accesscom.com> Hello all, I will not be able to make the SJAA Board Meeting Saturday. My daughter has college admissions auditions in SF and LA that day and I am flying with Her to LA. We had to fly out of Oakland to make our appointment in LA at 4:45 pm. So by the time we get back and drive to San Jose it will be touch and go even to make the regular meeting. Clear Skys, Bill O'Shaughnessy From akkana at shallowsky.com Wed Feb 7 12:54:33 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: ; from bill@nineplanets.org on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 12:54:03AM -0800 References: <3A80AB67.1B9B@aenet.net> Message-ID: <20010207125433.A97498@shallowsky.com> Bill Arnett writes: > Let's see if we can rescue the situation. Can one of you who thinks this is > a good thing explain what the non-overlapping charters of the three lists in > question (sjaa-announce, sjaa-chat and TAC) would be? Easy: sjaa-announce: announcements of upcoming club events (e.g. This Friday, Jay Freeman will give a class on Binocular Astronomy, or At this Saturday's board meeting, the board will discuss changing the club dues; members who are interested may want to attend). sjaa-chat: Discussion by members of SJAA events and policies (I'd like to start a sketching or ATM SIG, anyone want to join me? Anyone have the URL the speaker mentioned at last night's meeting? I have a friend who wants to go to Coe tonight and wants to join the club -- will there be anyone there who can take her application?) TAC: no charter. Any sort of chatter is okay as long as the people who are doing it are astronomers and preferably know each other. > And how to decide > which of the last two should receive postings about various topics, eg, > who's going to the Peak next weekend?, how do I collimate my new Dob?, my > Naglers are better than your Plossls!, Rush says I can use all the exterior > lights I want!, when's the next apparition of Comet Halley?. Gary suggests: Who's going to the Peak next weekend would be a TAC question. Will there be club members at the peak, or someone to whom I can give a membership form, would be an sjaa-chat question. How do I collimate my new dob would be a TAC question. Can I bring my new dob to Houge and get some help collimating it, or I have one of the club loaners and I'm trying to collimate it, would be sjaa-chat questions. My Naglers are better than your Plossls is a TAC topic. Should we get a Nagler for club scope #41 is an sjaa-chat topic. When's the next apparition of Halley is a TAC topic. Will the SJAA be organizing an outing to view Halley is an sjaa-chat topic. I don't seem to have any difficulty whatsoever in telling the two apart. Yes, there will be a little bit of overlap, e.g. there will be people asking "Will there be people at the Peak" who are actually interested in the total number, not just the number of club members, but they will ask on sjaa because they don't want to wade through 50 messages/day just to be able to ask that question once a month. But I think the overlap will be relatively small, *if* we make the charter clear and the traffic low and don't encourage off-topic chatter. (If we set reply-to to point to the list, we'll get a lot of general chatter because people won't know how to reply privately when they have something to say that's no longer relevant to the club, and then the list would become a lot more like TAC. But if that's what people want, so be it.) ...Akkana From mojo at whiteoaks.com Wed Feb 7 13:55:33 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A817FA8.9EAFE9DA@znet.com> Message-ID: I'd like to point out a couple of things on the email list subject. It is a valid desire and goal for a chat area to have a traffic volume that is "just right." People choose their email lists (and IRC chat channels) for the quality and the quantity of the traffic they receive. Too much drives you away, too little is uninteresting and forgotten about. Secondly, I hope you will consider that when building new mailing lists, you have the full resources of the whiteoaks.com server available to you. Nothing you have discussed to this point comes anywhere near straining my hosting abilities. Mi casa es su casa. And in that context, none of the limitations of majordomo are a consideration. I am fully installed with mailman 2.0 and keeping it current and supported. Mailman has excellent customizations and very easy administration via password- protected web pages. Almost anything you decide to do is possible. And lastly, there is no downside to creating these things and seeing if they fly. I can move any existing list into any newly created list with very little effort, and hardly anyone would notice the change. If you have a moderated list, it can have preapproved addresses, multiple administrators, and held postings are released from a web page. Life is much better than majordomo. :) Best regards, Mojo On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Dave North wrote: > Billa: >>I'm guessing that what Gary and many others want is a list just > like TAC but simply with fewer postings. Right?<< > > That's pretty much what it sounds like. > > >>We could certainly create such a list and keep it that way for a > while. But it seems to me that either eventually one or the other of > the lists would die or worse, lots of postings would go to both lists.<< > > It would not surprise me to see them remain distinct. Though there is > some overlap in the lists, the two memberships are distinctly different > in outlook on many issues, and I suspect that would remain true for > quite some time. > Not important though; it's usually questionable policy to try to > prevent an event because of what *might* happen -- this is done > politically quite often, and seldom works out. > If we have the technology, we can run the experiment. > As to the announce nature of the SJAA list, the easiest way I know of > to run it is to create a posting list (people allowed to post to it) and > there is no need for moderation after that. The biggest hassle in such a > setup is the process to allow postings -- I've never managed a majordomo > list without root privileges, but even then you have to (a) put new > names on the list as they come up and (b) delete names if the address > fails or if the permission to post turned out to be a mistake. > > > d > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From bill at nineplanets.org Wed Feb 7 14:14:45 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <20010207125433.A97498@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: on 2/7/01 12:54 PM, Akkana at akkana@shallowsky.com wrote: > ... I don't seem to have any difficulty whatsoever in telling the two > [sjaa-chat and TAC] apart... yeah, but your idea of sjaa-chat is pretty much the current sjaa list. So it seems that what you're really proposing is a new sjaa-announce list. But then I would argue that given the current level of traffic on what's essentially sjaa-chat we don't need sjaa-announce. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From akkana at shallowsky.com Wed Feb 7 14:22:04 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: ; from bill@nineplanets.org on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:14:45PM -0800 References: <20010207125433.A97498@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <20010207142204.A1343@shallowsky.com> Bill Arnett writes: > on 2/7/01 12:54 PM, Akkana at akkana@shallowsky.com wrote: > > > ... I don't seem to have any difficulty whatsoever in telling the two > > [sjaa-chat and TAC] apart... > > yeah, but your idea of sjaa-chat is pretty much the current sjaa list. So My idea of sjaa-chat is pretty much what some of us think the current sjaa list is. Lots of other people think the current list is an announce list. It was never clear, even to those of us on the board. The proposal on the table is to offer both, and make it clear which is which, so people will be willing to post to the chat list without worrying about getting flamed for posting on what someone else thought was an announce list. ...Akkana From bill at nineplanets.org Wed Feb 7 14:34:54 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <20010207142204.A1343@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: on 2/7/01 2:22 PM, Akkana at akkana@shallowsky.com wrote: > Bill Arnett writes: >> on 2/7/01 12:54 PM, Akkana at akkana@shallowsky.com wrote: >> >>> ... I don't seem to have any difficulty whatsoever in telling the two >>> [sjaa-chat and TAC] apart... >> >> yeah, but your idea of sjaa-chat is pretty much the current sjaa list. So > > My idea of sjaa-chat is pretty much what some of us think the current > sjaa list is. Lots of other people think the current list is an > announce list. It was never clear, even to those of us on the board. > The proposal on the table is to offer both, and make it clear which > is which, so people will be willing to post to the chat list without > worrying about getting flamed for posting on what someone else thought > was an announce list. But then the message that started all this mess ("Hello there") would have been out of line on both the new lists just as it was on the current one. And would have been flamed to the same extent, which is to say, not much but enough to start a storm of "what's this list about" messages and unsubscribes. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From sjaa at indigoskies.com Wed Feb 7 15:57:45 2001 From: sjaa at indigoskies.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Mojo / remailer list In-Reply-To: References: <3A817FA8.9EAFE9DA@znet.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010207155557.027a9190@indigoskies.com> At 01:55 PM 2/7/2001 -0800, Morris Jones wrote: >...Secondly, I hope you will consider that when building new mailing lists, >you have the full resources of the whiteoaks.com server available to you. Thank you for all the generosity, Mojo -- however it ultimately plays out amongst the board. Mark From mojo at whiteoaks.com Wed Feb 7 16:00:39 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Mojo / remailer list In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010207155557.027a9190@indigoskies.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Mark Taylor wrote: > At 01:55 PM 2/7/2001 -0800, Morris Jones wrote: > >...Secondly, I hope you will consider that when building new mailing lists, > >you have the full resources of the whiteoaks.com server available to you. > > Thank you for all the generosity, Mojo -- however it ultimately plays out > amongst the board. Absolutely, I just didn't want the complexities of majordomo to figure into the deliberations. :) As always, y'r ob'd'nt s'rv'nt Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From jvn at sjpc.org Wed Feb 7 21:59:00 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A8235A4.1B7B@sjpc.org> > on 2/7/01 2:22 PM, Akkana at akkana@shallowsky.com wrote: > > My idea of sjaa-chat is pretty much what some of us think the current > > sjaa list is. Lots of other people think the current list is an > > announce list. It was never clear, even to those of us on the board. > > The proposal on the table is to offer both, and make it clear which > > is which, so people will be willing to post to the chat list without > > worrying about getting flamed for posting on what someone else thought > > was an announce list. BILL ARNETT wrote: > But then the message that started all this mess ("Hello there") would have > been out of line on both the new lists just as it was on the current one. > And would have been flamed to the same extent, which is to say, not much but > enough to start a storm of "what's this list about" messages and > unsubscribes. The key here, as Akkana said above, is to make it abundantly clear which is which. Anyone wanting a quiet list will already be on it, and those who'd like a little discussion would sign up for the new list. Of course we must set the announce list to moderated before announcing the new list, so the subscribe requests go to the moderator and not back to the list. So there should be no complaints, and anyone who tries gets stopped. All that said, the Hello There message that started it would be on-topic on the talk list, as would the answers that were given. The petty complaining would be off-topic and grounds for getting tossed off (ducking for cover!) -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From bill at nineplanets.org Wed Feb 7 23:30:01 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A8235A4.1B7B@sjpc.org> Message-ID: on 2/7/01 9:59 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: >... the Hello There message that started it would be > on-topic on the talk list... Not by my understanding of Akkana's distinction between it and TAC. That infamous message had nothing at all to do with SJAA... -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From jvn at sjpc.org Thu Feb 8 00:20:34 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A8256D2.16DF@sjpc.org> Bill Arnett wrote: > > on 2/7/01 9:59 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: > > >... the Hello There message that started it would be > > on-topic on the talk list... > > Not by my understanding of Akkana's distinction between it and TAC. That > infamous message had nothing at all to do with SJAA... Obviously we are talking about different messages. The one I first saw was from a fellow asking about such things as a generator and small camper up at Coe. There were a few replies with useful answers. If it would not be welcome on the talk list, then I'm on the wrong planet. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From bill at nineplanets.org Thu Feb 8 01:15:49 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A8256D2.16DF@sjpc.org> Message-ID: on 2/8/01 12:20 AM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: > Bill Arnett wrote: >> >> on 2/7/01 9:59 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: >> >>> ... the Hello There message that started it would be >>> on-topic on the talk list... >> >> Not by my understanding of Akkana's distinction between it and TAC. That >> infamous message had nothing at all to do with SJAA... > > Obviously we are talking about different messages. The one I first > saw was from a fellow asking about such things as a generator and small > camper up at Coe. There were a few replies with useful answers. If it > would not be welcome on the talk list, then I'm on the wrong planet. Yes, but if it's to be an *SJAA* chat list as distinct from TAC then the postings must be directly related to SJAA. Coe is not our territory; we share it with the other clubs and hence such postings more rightly belong on TAC. Or at least that's the way I read Akkana's answer to my question about how to distinguish the two lists. IMHO, it's a pretty subtle distinction, one that's likely to cause a lot of confusion and/or duplicate postings. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Feb 8 00:00:47 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A82522F.60ED@aenet.net> Bill Arnett wrote: > Let's see if we can rescue the situation. Can one of you who thinks this is > a good thing explain what the non-overlapping charters of the three lists in > question (sjaa-announce, sjaa-chat and TAC) would be? And how to decide > which of the last two should receive postings about various topics, eg, > who's going to the Peak next weekend?, how do I collimate my new Dob?, my > Naglers are better than your Plossls!, Rush says I can use all the exterior > lights I want!, when's the next apparition of Comet Halley?. Gary suggests: > > > I would like to be on a *SJAA* remailer where I could talk to > > other SJAA members, without having to get swamped by the more > > general, non-club-specific TAC fire hose. > > It seems to be that none of the examples above are SJAA specific. I'm > guessing that what Gary and many others want is a list just like TAC but > simply with fewer postings. Right? Not quite. The main thing is to have a club remailer, something specific to SJAA, not the whole bay area (or whatever TAC's coverage). Most of the examples you gave might be better on a general astro remailer like TAC, or a usenet group. A couple of posts ago Akkana already gave some good examples of what the sjaa-chat remailer might carry. As for sjaa-announce...I don't see any conflict or overlap hardly at all. That one would be for SJAA club announcements and bulletins only. > We could certainly create such a list > and keep it that way for a while. But it seems to me that either eventually > one or the other of the lists would die or worse, lots of postings would go > to both lists. Cross-posting is a problem on usenet too, but that's hardly a reason for not having the remailer. Maybe an annalogy would help make my point more clear... I would compare TAC to sjaa-chat the way an astronomy convention compares to a SJAA meeting. They may indeed have some overlap, and the convention may have many SJAA memebers. But would you argue that since the convention is there, we should stop having SJAA meetings altogether? It seems you'd say yes... Basically that's what you're saying about TAC vs sjaa-chat. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Feb 8 00:27:25 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <3A80AB67.1B9B@aenet.net> <20010207125433.A97498@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3A82586D.E2B@aenet.net> Akkana wrote: > > Bill Arnett writes: > > Let's see if we can rescue the situation. Can one of you who thinks this is > > a good thing explain what the non-overlapping charters of the three lists in > > question (sjaa-announce, sjaa-chat and TAC) would be? > > Easy: > sjaa-announce: announcements of upcoming club events (e.g. This > Friday, Jay Freeman will give a class on Binocular Astronomy, > or At this Saturday's board meeting, the board will discuss changing > the club dues; members who are interested may want to attend). > > sjaa-chat: Discussion by members of SJAA events and policies > (I'd like to start a sketching or ATM SIG, anyone want to join me? > Anyone have the URL the speaker mentioned at last night's meeting? > I have a friend who wants to go to Coe tonight and wants to join the > club -- will there be anyone there who can take her application?) > > TAC: no charter. Any sort of chatter is okay as long as the people > who are doing it are astronomers and preferably know each other. > > > And how to decide > > which of the last two should receive postings about various topics, eg, > > who's going to the Peak next weekend?, how do I collimate my new Dob?, my > > Naglers are better than your Plossls!, Rush says I can use all the exterior > > lights I want!, when's the next apparition of Comet Halley?. Gary suggests: > > Who's going to the Peak next weekend would be a TAC question. > Will there be club members at the peak, or someone to whom I can give > a membership form, would be an sjaa-chat question. > > How do I collimate my new dob would be a TAC question. > Can I bring my new dob to Houge and get some help collimating it, > or I have one of the club loaners and I'm trying to collimate it, > would be sjaa-chat questions. > > My Naglers are better than your Plossls is a TAC topic. > Should we get a Nagler for club scope #41 is an sjaa-chat topic. > > When's the next apparition of Halley is a TAC topic. > Will the SJAA be organizing an outing to view Halley is an sjaa-chat topic. > > I don't seem to have any difficulty whatsoever in telling the two > apart. Yes, there will be a little bit of overlap, e.g. there will be > people asking "Will there be people at the Peak" who are actually > interested in the total number, not just the number of club members, > but they will ask on sjaa because they don't want to wade through 50 > messages/day just to be able to ask that question once a month. > But I think the overlap will be relatively small, *if* we make the > charter clear and the traffic low and don't encourage off-topic chatter. > (If we set reply-to to point to the list, we'll get a lot of general > chatter because people won't know how to reply privately when they > have something to say that's no longer relevant to the club, and then > the list would become a lot more like TAC. But if that's what people > want, so be it.) > > ...Akkana Maybe I should just sit back and let Akkana drive. :) Just one comment on the Reply-To question... The opposite is also a problem. Many people don't think about that and just hit reply. My experience has been that this is far more of a hastle for a discussion remailer than ignoring a few posts that would have been better off only going back to the sender. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Feb 8 00:33:55 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A8259F3.1048@aenet.net> Bill Arnett wrote: > > on 2/7/01 12:54 PM, Akkana at akkana@shallowsky.com wrote: > > > ... I don't seem to have any difficulty whatsoever in telling the two > > [sjaa-chat and TAC] apart... > > yeah, but your idea of sjaa-chat is pretty much the current sjaa list. So > it seems that what you're really proposing is a new sjaa-announce list. But > then I would argue that given the current level of traffic on what's > essentially sjaa-chat we don't need sjaa-announce. Based on what happened after the posting to sjaa that started this whole mess, that's not true. Most of Akkana's examples would apparently be a problem on the announce list. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Feb 8 00:36:28 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A825A8C.77B3@aenet.net> Bill Arnett wrote: > > on 2/7/01 2:22 PM, Akkana at akkana@shallowsky.com wrote: > > > Bill Arnett writes: > >> on 2/7/01 12:54 PM, Akkana at akkana@shallowsky.com wrote: > >> > >>> ... I don't seem to have any difficulty whatsoever in telling the two > >>> [sjaa-chat and TAC] apart... > >> > >> yeah, but your idea of sjaa-chat is pretty much the current sjaa list. So > > > > My idea of sjaa-chat is pretty much what some of us think the current > > sjaa list is. Lots of other people think the current list is an > > announce list. It was never clear, even to those of us on the board. > > The proposal on the table is to offer both, and make it clear which > > is which, so people will be willing to post to the chat list without > > worrying about getting flamed for posting on what someone else thought > > was an announce list. > > But then the message that started all this mess ("Hello there") would have > been out of line on both the new lists just as it was on the current one. > And would have been flamed to the same extent, which is to say, not much but > enough to start a storm of "what's this list about" messages and > unsubscribes. I'm at a loss to understand you're reasoning. That post would have been perfect for the chat list. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Feb 8 03:58:03 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A8289CB.6BD6@aenet.net> Bill Arnett wrote: > > on 2/8/01 12:20 AM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: > > > Bill Arnett wrote: > >> > >> on 2/7/01 9:59 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: > >> > >>> ... the Hello There message that started it would be > >>> on-topic on the talk list... > >> > >> Not by my understanding of Akkana's distinction between it and TAC. That > >> infamous message had nothing at all to do with SJAA... > > > > Obviously we are talking about different messages. The one I first > > saw was from a fellow asking about such things as a generator and small > > camper up at Coe. There were a few replies with useful answers. If it > > would not be welcome on the talk list, then I'm on the wrong planet. > > Yes, but if it's to be an *SJAA* chat list as distinct from TAC then the > postings must be directly related to SJAA. Coe is not our territory; we > share it with the other clubs and hence such postings more rightly belong on > TAC. Or at least that's the way I read Akkana's answer to my question about > how to distinguish the two lists. IMHO, it's a pretty subtle distinction, > one that's likely to cause a lot of confusion and/or duplicate postings. I think you're being too literal and rigid. That original note was in reference to a SJAA star party at Coe, which most certainly would be on-topic. Just because it might also apply to another club or whatever is of no consequence. In any chat group, the discussion may stray from the main purpose of the remailer from time to time. I wouldn't worry too much about that unless it gets out of hand. For example, if the discussion was about the star-b-Q at Fremont Peak (in which SJAA is a major participant) and there were a couple of go-arounds about a particular dish, I'd let that slide. On the other hand, if the discussion migrated into a big religous debate about whether the universe was created or formed naturally, I'd try to get them to take it off the remailer. Gary From north at znet.com Thu Feb 8 09:14:19 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: <3A8289CB.6BD6@aenet.net> Message-ID: <3A82D3E9.C2B959D0@znet.com> Does anyone have any other matters for the agenda this month? dave From bartolij at POM-EMH1.ARMY.MIL Thu Feb 8 09:13:40 2001 From: bartolij at POM-EMH1.ARMY.MIL (Bartolini, Jim) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list Message-ID: <9112B1E00AB4D311A9F3009027AF88B602CC28B9@pom-emh1.army.mil> > From: Dave North [SMTP:north@znet.com] > >>Does anyone have any other matters for the agenda this month? Nope..... Jim ........... :-) ================================================= Jim Bartolini ================================================= From koopm at best.com Thu Feb 8 09:59:07 2001 From: koopm at best.com (Michael Koop) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A82D3E9.C2B959D0@znet.com> Message-ID: Auction is comming up....... On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Dave North wrote: > Does anyone have any other matters for the agenda this month? > > > dave > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > From north at znet.com Thu Feb 8 11:36:26 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Equipment for Kevin Zahnle's talk References: Message-ID: <3A82F539.2A479464@znet.com> Kevin tells me the following about equipment: >>We will be showing videos. VHS will do fine.<< We do have something that shows VHS, right? Do we have a big enough screen? >>I'll show a few slides and a few viewgraphs, as appropriate. I'll also be asking Jeff M if he has some nice slides of Venus that I can borrow.<< So, we need a slide projector and a viewgraph too. Any problems with all this? Lemme know... Dave From mojo at whiteoaks.com Thu Feb 8 11:39:03 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Equipment for Kevin Zahnle's talk In-Reply-To: <3A82F539.2A479464@znet.com> Message-ID: "Check" on the slide projector and overhead projector (is that what you call a viewgraph?). Mojo On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Dave North wrote: > Kevin tells me the following about equipment: > > >>We will be showing videos. VHS will do fine.<< > > We do have something that shows VHS, right? Do we have a big enough screen? > > >>I'll show a few slides and a few viewgraphs, as appropriate. > I'll also be asking Jeff M if he has some nice slides of Venus that > I can borrow.<< > > So, we need a slide projector and a viewgraph too. Any problems with all > this? Lemme know... > > > > Dave > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From koopm at best.com Thu Feb 8 11:44:55 2001 From: koopm at best.com (Michael Koop) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Equipment for Kevin Zahnle's talk In-Reply-To: <3A82F539.2A479464@znet.com> Message-ID: I'll arrange the Computer Projector (it shows video very well and large) and screen. Can someone bring a VHS VCR with Video/Audio out? Mike Koop On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Dave North wrote: > Kevin tells me the following about equipment: > > >>We will be showing videos. VHS will do fine.<< > > We do have something that shows VHS, right? Do we have a big enough screen? > > >>I'll show a few slides and a few viewgraphs, as appropriate. > I'll also be asking Jeff M if he has some nice slides of Venus that > I can borrow.<< > > So, we need a slide projector and a viewgraph too. Any problems with all > this? Lemme know... > > > > Dave > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > From north at znet.com Thu Feb 8 11:47:37 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Equipment for Kevin Zahnle's talk References: Message-ID: <3A82F7D9.B8B6DC2A@znet.com> Mojo: >>"Check" on the slide projector and overhead projector (is that what you call a viewgraph?).<< I sure as hell hope so! Thanks, Mo. We gets a VCR and we're in business... dave From north at znet.com Thu Feb 8 11:49:09 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Equipment for Kevin Zahnle's talk References: Message-ID: <3A82F835.63F9D80E@znet.com> Koop: >>I'll arrange the Computer Projector (it shows video very well and large) and screen. Can someone bring a VHS VCR with Video/Audio out?<< Very extremely cool! Thanks! I can as a last resort (it's all hooked up to stuff). Does anyone have one that's not all hooked up? Dave From sjaa at indigoskies.com Thu Feb 8 11:52:59 2001 From: sjaa at indigoskies.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Equipment for Kevin Zahnle's talk In-Reply-To: References: <3A82F539.2A479464@znet.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010208115118.027f1320@indigoskies.com> >On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Dave North wrote: > > > Kevin tells me the following about equipment: > > > > >>We will be showing videos. VHS will do fine.<< > > > > We do have something that shows VHS, right? Do we have a big enough screen? I have the TVCR unit, and will bring it. It's only 9" though. Maybe if someone (Mike?) can bring a presentation projector we can hook it to the TVCR and project the video on the big screen? From sjaa at indigoskies.com Thu Feb 8 11:54:33 2001 From: sjaa at indigoskies.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Equipment for Kevin Zahnle's talk In-Reply-To: References: <3A82F539.2A479464@znet.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010208115334.027dd118@indigoskies.com> At 11:44 AM 2/8/2001 -0800, Michael Koop wrote: >I'll arrange the Computer Projector (it shows video very well and >large) and screen. Can someone bring a VHS VCR with Video/Audio out? Dang; ignore my redundant message (I guess I should have read ahead before responding!) M From bill at nineplanets.org Thu Feb 8 12:33:20 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] agenda In-Reply-To: <3A82D3E9.C2B959D0@znet.com> Message-ID: on 2/8/01 9:14 AM, Dave North at north@znet.com wrote: > Does anyone have any other matters for the agenda this month? Update on the green laser. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From bill at nineplanets.org Thu Feb 8 12:52:20 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list In-Reply-To: <3A82522F.60ED@aenet.net> Message-ID: on 2/8/01 12:00 AM, Gary Mitchell at wb6yru@aenet.net wrote: >... Cross-posting is a problem on usenet too, but that's hardly > a reason for not having the remailer... Perhaps this is the heart of our disagreement. I find cross posting to be a great nuisance both as a sender and as a receiver. I can live with it when I have to but I certainly don't want to create a situation where more is likely. If we could think of a useful charter for an sjaa chat list that didn't overlap too much with TAC or ASTRO (or "sjaa-announce") then I would be fine. on 2/8/01 12:36 AM, Gary Mitchell at wb6yru@aenet.net wrote: > Bill Arnett wrote: >>... the message that started all this mess ("Hello there") would have >> been out of line on both the new lists just as it was on the current one. >> And would have been flamed to the same extent, which is to say, not much but >> enough to start a storm of "what's this list about" messages and >> unsubscribes. > > I'm at a loss to understand you're reasoning. That post would > have been perfect for the chat list. Let me refresh all our memories: on 1/29/01 9:43 AM, Jeff Masnaghetti at JeffM@geysernetworks.com wrote: > Hello, I am new to this list. I figured I would hang out for a bit and see > what email activity was going on here, but I don't see much. So this is a > ping. > > I have had a passing interest in astronomy since I was given a telescope for > christmas when I was a teen, longer ago than I care to think. I have always > has fun looking at the moon, jupiter, and saturn. I have checked out > sunspots anddone terrestrial viewing too. But the scope itself was just a > 60mm department store refractor, you know, the kind that advertises 450x. > > I have been looking at the new crop of goto scopes for a while now, and my > wife damaged our finances severely this christmas by getting me one. Now I > want to use it. I have set it up in my front yard in Campbell, competing > with street lights, car headlights, and driveway floodlights for a view of > the sky. I love M42, so cool! I want to go poking around other objects, and > I am interested in the star parties you folks have. I intend to attend the > next houge park party with my scope(s) and try to pick some brains. > > I have also read about the lunar grazing occultations and I was looking to > see if anyone is going to be organizing a party for one this year. And is > there going to be a messier marathon this March? > > More questions about the Coe star parties: > Would an AC generator be frowned on? (power for the goto and dew zapper, and > I could share) > How many attend those, this time of year, and as the summer comes on? > How many camp there overnight at the parties? > Can I park a small RV at the spot where the stargazing is going on? > > And the one last big question: Is anyone else on this list? > > Jeff SJAA is never mentioned. He talks about the list itself, himself, equipment and various events and Coe. It is not in any way specific to SJAA and hence it would have been inappropriate given Akkana's notion of what the sjaa-chat list should be about. Sure, we would have politely answered his questions but it seems to me he would have been much better served by posting on TAC. on 2/8/01 3:58 AM, Gary Mitchell at wb6yru@aenet.net wrote: > I think you're being too literal and rigid. That original > note was in reference to a SJAA star party at Coe, which most > certainly would be on-topic. Just because it might also apply > to another club or whatever is of no consequence. It's likely that he really was referring to the Coe entries on our calendar. But maybe not. In any case, I'm sure he didn't care about the club affiliations of the people who might be there. He wanted to know about Coe (and a bunch of other stuff) not about SJAA. By addressing his question in a too-limited forum he might have gotten a very misleading answer. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From jvn at sjpc.org Thu Feb 8 15:01:38 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Equipment for Kevin Zahnle's talk References: Message-ID: <3A832552.69A8@sjpc.org> Michael Koop wrote: > > I'll arrange the Computer Projector (it shows video very well and > large) and screen. Can someone bring a VHS VCR with Video/Audio out? SJAA has a TV/VCR combination. Does it have video out from the tape player section? I don't know who is storing this unit. I'll bring the big screen, the one in the green case. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From jvn at sjpc.org Thu Feb 8 16:54:50 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Calendar, April Message-ID: <3A833FDA.4A1E@sjpc.org> Here's the calendar for the next month's Ephemeris. April 2001 1 -S- DST start. Advance clock by 1 hour at 1 a.m. --> 2 a.m. 7 -s- Board Meeting? 8 -s- General Meeting: Swap Meet & Auction (Sunday) 13 -f- Houge Park star party Sset 7:41 pm, 64% moon rises 1:39 am. 14 -s- Fremont Peak star party Sset 7:40 pm, 55% moon rises 2:24 am. 16 -m- Tax Day - Monday 21 -s- Coe and Peak star party Sset 7:47 pm, 3% moon rises 6:14 am. 23 -S- Easter Sunday (school vacations before/after) 27 -f- Astronomy Class V, 7:30 pm, hall, Houge Park Topic will be Types of Telescopes 27 -f- Houge Park star party Sset 7:54 pm, 23% moon sets 0:27 am. Apr.27 is our Astronomy Day event. Official Astronomy Day is Apr.28. We designate the Houge Park star party as our event. SPEAKERS NEEDED: I have a nibble from his publisher to have Dr. Timothy Ferris do a book signing, somewhere during the summer (May - August). Be sure to check with me before using any of those dates. I'll post as soon as I know anything. YOSEMITE: Our dates are Aug.10-11. There were only two good weekends, and this one has the 3Q moon rising about midnight. We'll have 2 hours of dark on Friday, 2.5 hours on Saturday. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From bill at nineplanets.org Thu Feb 8 17:04:04 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Calendar, April In-Reply-To: <3A833FDA.4A1E@sjpc.org> Message-ID: on 2/8/01 4:54 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: > Here's the calendar for the next month's Ephemeris. > > April 2001 > 1 -S- DST start. Advance clock by 1 hour at 1 a.m. --> 2 a.m. > 7 -s- Board Meeting? > 8 -s- General Meeting: Swap Meet & Auction (Sunday) Can't we just have the board meeting at a break during the swap meet? -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From jvn at sjpc.org Thu Feb 8 17:01:38 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] My absence Feb.14 - 16 Message-ID: <3A834172.512F@sjpc.org> Hi, all, I'll be visiting my daughter near Sutter Creek Feb.14 thru 16, with a small possibility of return on the 17th. Just in case, someone should take the key for the 17th. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From koopm at best.com Thu Feb 8 17:07:59 2001 From: koopm at best.com (Michael Koop) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Calendar, April In-Reply-To: <3A833FDA.4A1E@sjpc.org> Message-ID: AANC Meeting on April 7th at Chabot Science Center, Mojo has details.... On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Jim Van Nuland wrote: > Here's the calendar for the next month's Ephemeris. > > April 2001 > 1 -S- DST start. Advance clock by 1 hour at 1 a.m. --> 2 a.m. > 7 -s- Board Meeting? > 8 -s- General Meeting: Swap Meet & Auction (Sunday) > 13 -f- Houge Park star party Sset 7:41 pm, 64% moon rises 1:39 am. > 14 -s- Fremont Peak star party Sset 7:40 pm, 55% moon rises 2:24 am. > 16 -m- Tax Day - Monday > 21 -s- Coe and Peak star party Sset 7:47 pm, 3% moon rises 6:14 am. > 23 -S- Easter Sunday (school vacations before/after) > 27 -f- Astronomy Class V, 7:30 pm, hall, Houge Park > Topic will be Types of Telescopes > 27 -f- Houge Park star party Sset 7:54 pm, 23% moon sets 0:27 am. > Apr.27 is our Astronomy Day event. > > Official Astronomy Day is Apr.28. We designate the Houge Park star > party as our event. > > SPEAKERS NEEDED: > I have a nibble from his publisher to have Dr. Timothy Ferris do a > book signing, somewhere during the summer (May - August). Be sure to > check with me before using any of those dates. I'll post as soon as I > know anything. > > YOSEMITE: > Our dates are Aug.10-11. There were only two good weekends, and this > one has the 3Q moon rising about midnight. We'll have 2 hours of dark > on Friday, 2.5 hours on Saturday. > > -- > Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. > Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org > JVN's home page > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > From sjaa at indigoskies.com Thu Feb 8 17:44:31 2001 From: sjaa at indigoskies.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Calendar, April In-Reply-To: <3A833FDA.4A1E@sjpc.org> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010208174324.027dd118@indigoskies.com> At 04:54 PM 2/8/2001 -0800, Jim Van Nuland wrote: >Here's the calendar for the next month's Ephemeris. > >April 2001 > 1 -S- DST start. Advance clock by 1 hour at 1 a.m. --> 2 a.m. Officially it's 2am -> 3am From jvn at sjpc.org Thu Feb 8 21:25:02 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Calendar, April References: Message-ID: <3A837F2E.17C6@sjpc.org> Bill Arnett wrote: > > on 2/8/01 4:54 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: > > > Here's the calendar for the next month's Ephemeris. > > > > April 2001 > > 1 -S- DST start. Advance clock by 1 hour at 1 a.m. --> 2 a.m. > > 7 -s- Board Meeting? > > 8 -s- General Meeting: Swap Meet & Auction (Sunday) > > Can't we just have the board meeting at a break during the swap meet? It's a rather busy day! During the break (between swap and auction) we'll be busy rearranging the chairs, and I'll be typing my face off getting the late arrivals registered. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From bill at nineplanets.org Thu Feb 8 22:38:04 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Calendar, April In-Reply-To: <3A837F2E.17C6@sjpc.org> Message-ID: on 2/8/01 9:25 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: > Bill Arnett wrote: >> >> on 2/8/01 4:54 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: >> >>> Here's the calendar for the next month's Ephemeris. >>> >>> April 2001 >>> 1 -S- DST start. Advance clock by 1 hour at 1 a.m. --> 2 a.m. >>> 7 -s- Board Meeting? >>> 8 -s- General Meeting: Swap Meet & Auction (Sunday) >> >> Can't we just have the board meeting at a break during the swap meet? > > It's a rather busy day! During the break (between swap and auction) > we'll be busy rearranging the chairs, and I'll be typing my face off > getting the late arrivals registered. IIRC we just skipped the meeting last year, right? -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From wb6yru at aenet.net Fri Feb 9 01:09:16 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Motion to set up new remailer list References: Message-ID: <3A83B3BC.901@aenet.net> Bill Arnett wrote: > > Bill Arnett wrote: > >>... the message that started all this mess ("Hello there") would have > >> been out of line on both the new lists just as it was on the current one. > >> And would have been flamed to the same extent, which is to say, not much but > >> enough to start a storm of "what's this list about" messages and > >> unsubscribes. > > > > I'm at a loss to understand you're reasoning. That post would > > have been perfect for the chat list. > > Let me refresh all our memories: > > on 1/29/01 9:43 AM, Jeff Masnaghetti at JeffM@geysernetworks.com wrote: [snip] > > I am interested in the star parties you folks have. I intend to attend the > > next houge park party with my scope(s) and try to pick some brains. > > > > I have also read about the lunar grazing occultations and I was looking to > > see if anyone is going to be organizing a party for one this year. And is > > there going to be a messier marathon this March? > > > > More questions about the Coe star parties: > > Would an AC generator be frowned on? (power for the goto and dew zapper, and > > I could share) > > How many attend those, this time of year, and as the summer comes on? > > How many camp there overnight at the parties? > > Can I park a small RV at the spot where the stargazing is going on? > > > > And the one last big question: Is anyone else on this list? > > > > Jeff > > SJAA is never mentioned. He talks about the list itself, himself, equipment > and various events and Coe. It is not in any way specific to SJAA and hence > it would have been inappropriate given Akkana's notion of what the sjaa-chat > list should be about. You sound like a lawyer despirately trying to win a lost case, grabbing at straws and trying to make them sound good. Maybe he didn't mention "SJAA" by name, but clearly that's who he is referring to when he says "you folks" and mentions our star parties at Coe and Houge...unless there's another astronomy group that goes to Houge that I don't know about. Gary From jvn at sjpc.org Fri Feb 9 00:01:33 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Calendar, April References: Message-ID: <3A83A3DD.10B7@sjpc.org> > >> on 2/8/01 4:54 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: > >> > >>> Here's the calendar for the next month's Ephemeris. > >>> > >>> April 2001 > >>> 1 -S- DST start. Advance clock by 1 hour at 1 a.m. --> 2 a.m. > >>> 7 -s- Board Meeting? Bill Arnett wrote: > IIRC we just skipped the meeting last year, right? Yes, that's been the case at most if not all of the auctions. BTW, my wife agrees with Mark that the official time is 2 --> 3. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From akkana at shallowsky.com Fri Feb 9 10:44:35 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:10 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Calendar, April In-Reply-To: <3A837F2E.17C6@sjpc.org>; from jvn@sjpc.org on Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 09:25:02PM -0800 References: <3A837F2E.17C6@sjpc.org> <3A837F2E.17C6@sjpc.org> Message-ID: <20010209104435.B14234@shallowsky.com> Jim Van Nuland writes: > It's a rather busy day! During the break (between swap and auction) > we'll be busy rearranging the chairs, and I'll be typing my face off > getting the late arrivals registered. Um, isn't that between auction and swap? Didn't we vote to do the auction first this time? Bill Arnett writes: > IIRC we just skipped the meeting last year, right? Correct. ...Akkana From jvn at sjpc.org Fri Feb 9 12:47:15 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Calendar, April References: <3A837F2E.17C6@sjpc.org> <3A837F2E.17C6@sjpc.org> <20010209104435.B14234@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3A845753.1A8C@sjpc.org> Akkana wrote: > > Jim Van Nuland writes: > > It's a rather busy day! During the break (between swap and auction) > > we'll be busy rearranging the chairs, and I'll be typing my face off > > getting the late arrivals registered. > > Um, isn't that between auction and swap? Didn't we vote to do the > auction first this time? I'm not aware of any such vote, only the threat of doing so. I am utterly against it. Our customers have voted with their feet, and I am not about to jump in their way. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From sjaa at indigoskies.com Sat Feb 10 15:07:33 2001 From: sjaa at indigoskies.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] tonight Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010210142527.00a86b98@208.241.78.28> Hi gang, I discovered today that I mistakenly let myself get double-booked for tonight -- this will prevent me from making it to the club's meetings. That is unfortunate for many reasons, not the least of which is the election and the talk (which I was quite looking forward to). First a simple matter: Someone please get a mailing address for tonight's speaker, and tell him I'll mail his check out ASAP. A more important matter (one that I wanted to bring up in person) should be discussed even in my absence: When the new board elects our 2001 officer positions next month, it should not plan on my accepting the treasurer role again. Demands on my time have grown significantly over the last year, and I just can't find adequate time for keeping after the books very well anymore. If no continuing board member is able and willing to take over the position next month, then I suggest informally polling the new board right after the election. And if that turns up empty, then consider making an announcement to the membership tonight if possible to get a head start on finding a replacement. I understand that the position does not *require* being on the board, but I personally think it's a good idea; that said, if you find someone from the membership at large, I'll gladly give up my board seat to them if they would like it. My plan is to have all of the paperwork fully sorted out and up-to-date in time for the next meeting so that it can be easily turned over to a new treasurer. Sorry if this seems like I'm springing this on you at the "last minute". A change to a more demanding job this past year started me questioning whether I could/should continue as treasurer, but a promotion at the end of the year pretty much sealed the decision -- so this has only recently been a sure thing in my own mind. I had originally hoped to ride out my board term as treasurer. Regards, Mark P.S. Since this is going out so late (sorry again for that), anyone who sees it before the meeting might want to print it for the benefit of the other board members who haven't seen it in time. Thanks. From mojo at whiteoaks.com Mon Feb 12 13:28:13 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] sjaa lists ready Message-ID: Bill, I've created the two lists, and populated the announce list with the current members of the sjaa list. Announce list: Posting aliases: sjaa-announce@sjaa.net announce@sjaa.net sjaa@sjaa.net Admin URL: http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/admin/sjaa-announce Password: sjaa2001 (change this to something memorable for you) Subscribe URL for the web page: http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaa-announce Chat list: Posting aliases: sjaa-chat@sjaa.net chat@sjaa.net Admin URL: http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/admin/sjaa-chat Password: sjaa2001 (change this ...) Subscribe URL for the web page: http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaa-chat Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From mojo at whiteoaks.com Mon Feb 12 13:40:27 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Join the chat list folks. :) Message-ID: Bill or I could just ADD you to the chat list of our own accord, but if you go here and add yourself, you get to set your own password, instead of getting something random from mailman. :) http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaa-chat Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From koopm at best.com Mon Feb 12 14:55:33 2001 From: koopm at best.com (Michael Koop) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Join the chat list folks. :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Have we set a charter for these groups? I think we spent the whole time at the meeting debating of the existence of the announce list. We still need to set specifics on reply to,and on who can post to the moderated announce list, ect. As far as a name for the new list, how about Forum or Colloquy Wow, Mojo, you got that done fast. Mike On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Morris Jones wrote: > Bill or I could just ADD you to the chat list of our own accord, > but if you go here and add yourself, you get to set your own password, > instead of getting something random from mailman. :) > > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaa-chat > > Mojo > -- > Morris Jones <*> > San Rafael, CA > mojo@whiteoaks.com > http://www.whiteoaks.com > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > From bill at nineplanets.org Mon Feb 12 15:24:18 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Join the chat list folks. :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 2/12/01 2:55 PM, Michael Koop at koopm@best.com wrote: > Have we set a charter for these groups? Yeah: "This list is for chatter related to the San Jose Astronomical Association." and "This is a moderated list of members of the San Jose Astronomical Association for announcements of club events and astronomical events of specific interest to SJAA members." These seem adequate to me. > I think we spent the whole time at > the meeting debating of the existence of the announce list. > We still need to set specifics on reply to,and on who can post > to the moderated announce list, ect. Any one can post to either list but posting to the announce list must be approved by the administrator. > As far as a name for the new list sjaa-chat seems fine to me. I expect it would be some trouble to change it now. So, are the rest of you going to subsribe? (must misspell that word to avoid having it bounce) -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From akkana at shallowsky.com Mon Feb 12 15:48:16 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Join the chat list folks. :) In-Reply-To: ; from bill@nineplanets.org on Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 03:24:18PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20010212154815.A41453@shallowsky.com> The charters seemed fine to me. Bill Arnett writes: > Any one can post to either list but posting to the announce list must be > approved by the administrator. Does mailman have any sort of password or Approved: header to allow board members (or some fixed list of people) posting permission, to take the load off the moderator for people who regularly need to post? Or does the moderator care? (If not, then I withdraw the question.) > > As far as a name for the new list > > sjaa-chat seems fine to me. I expect it would be some trouble to change it I thought we said it was going to be something like "discuss", but I don't feel strongly about it. > So, are the rest of you going to subsribe? (must misspell that word to > avoid having it bounce) I did. ...Akkana From mojo at whiteoaks.com Mon Feb 12 15:52:11 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Join the chat list folks. :) In-Reply-To: <20010212154815.A41453@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Akkana wrote: > Does mailman have any sort of password or Approved: header to allow > board members (or some fixed list of people) posting permission, to > take the load off the moderator for people who regularly need to post? > Or does the moderator care? (If not, then I withdraw the question.) What it does have is a list of "from:" addresses for whom posts are not held for moderation. Those can be added and maintained from the admin web pages. Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From jvn at sjpc.org Mon Feb 12 15:56:16 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Join the chat list folks. :) References: Message-ID: <3A887820.52FB@sjpc.org> > Any one can post to either list but posting to the announce list must be > approved by the administrator. Have the president, secretary, etc., been given immediate-posting capability? (On another list I saw it called fastpath, meaning that the moderator did not need to approve it, but instead the message was posted immediately.) > So, are the rest of you going to subsribe? (must misspell that word to > avoid having it bounce) I've done that, and sent back the confirm. BILL: Why must you misspell that word? Maybe a -- at the top of the message would turn off majordomo's parsing? BILL again: What now becomes of the list that was run from seds? -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From bill at nineplanets.org Mon Feb 12 15:56:47 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Join the chat list folks. :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 2/12/01 3:52 PM, Morris Jones at mojo@whiteoaks.com wrote: > On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Akkana wrote: > >> Does mailman have any sort of password or Approved: header to allow >> board members (or some fixed list of people) posting permission, to >> take the load off the moderator for people who regularly need to post? >> Or does the moderator care? (If not, then I withdraw the question.) > > What it does have is a list of "from:" addresses for whom posts are not > held for moderation. Those can be added and maintained from the admin > web pages. Any of you who want to be on the auto-approve list can just notify me and I'll add you. I would rather not so do automatically since many of you have multiple email addresses. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From bill at nineplanets.org Mon Feb 12 16:14:00 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Join the chat list folks. :) In-Reply-To: <3A887820.52FB@sjpc.org> Message-ID: on 2/12/01 3:56 PM, Jim Van Nuland at jvn@sjpc.org wrote: >... > BILL: > Why must you misspell that word? Maybe a -- at the top of the message > would turn off majordomo's parsing? Because mailman doesn't forward messages that contain certain strings. Mojo is investigating... > BILL again: > What now becomes of the list that was run from seds? I've sent a message to the SEDS postmaster asking him to discontinue it and forward anything to the new announce list. But this may take a while. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From mojo at whiteoaks.com Mon Feb 12 17:07:23 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] board archive fixed ... Message-ID: I've fixed the sjaaboard archive to the From: email addresses are obscured. At present I don't have a filter for the body of the emails contained there in. By the way, that archive is here: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From bill at nineplanets.org Mon Feb 12 17:17:11 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] board archive fixed ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 2/12/01 5:07 PM, Morris Jones at mojo@whiteoaks.com wrote: > I've fixed the sjaaboard archive to the From: email addresses are > obscured. At present I don't have a filter for the body of the emails > contained there in. > > By the way, that archive is here: > > http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard At present we have similar archives for all three lists (board, announce, chat). I'm happy with them as they are but a determined spammer could still harvest some of our addresses from those archives. Any objections? -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From north at znet.com Mon Feb 12 18:04:53 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] sjaa lists ready References: Message-ID: <3A889645.1B4BB9D2@znet.com> You da man, mojo. Hot work. b: >>Any of you who want to be on the auto-approve list can just notify me and I'll add you.<< Do it, please. I'll be posting some stuff... d From sjaa at indigoskies.com Mon Feb 12 18:20:20 2001 From: sjaa at indigoskies.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] board archive fixed ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010212181031.0289e5b8@indigoskies.com> At 05:17 PM 2/12/2001 -0800, Bill Arnett wrote: >on 2/12/01 5:07 PM, Morris Jones at mojo@whiteoaks.com wrote: > > > I've fixed the sjaaboard archive to the From: email addresses are > > obscured. At present I don't have a filter for the body of the emails > > contained there in. > >At present we have similar archives for all three lists (board, announce, >chat). I'm happy with them as they are but a determined spammer could still >harvest some of our addresses from those archives. Any objections? True where "determined" means "has or writes a simple piece of software". It's really a trivial matter to harvest the archives. While I believe it would be wise to obscure the addresses on all three lists, I know it won't solve all the problems. People still put their address in their signatures, and many mail programs say "At [date] foo@bar.com wrote:" And even if we institute a body filter (as Mojo mentioned above) that's still probably not the end-all. But EVERY LITTLE BIT counts. FWIW, 99.99% of all my spam comes from my address having been harvested from the sjaa web site. I use separate addresses for separate purposes so I can track this sort of thing. BTW (JVN et al) I've had ZERO spam on the addresses I use with egroups and its kin. These providers know people won't use them if they allow that to happen. Mark From sjaa at indigoskies.com Mon Feb 12 18:30:00 2001 From: sjaa at indigoskies.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] sjaa lists ready -- announce?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010212180408.027c4be8@indigoskies.com> Bill, Mojo, etc... So if I understand it correctly, the seds subscriber list has been duplicated over to the "sjaa-announce@sjaa.net" list. Both currently operate, so anyone sending to either will still get their message out. Does that mean it's time to send a message to "sjaa-announce" announcing that the list has been moved, and that people should change their address books and mail filters accordingly? And perhaps in a *separate* message... should we also send out (on the "announce" list) an invitation to join the "sjaa-chat" list? In addition to explaining all this on the sjaa web pages, perhaps we should just send out an announcement explaining all three lists, their charters, how to find the archives, subscribe, etc? (Whew. That's a whole lot of announcing going on!) Bill: The mailing list page has a formatting bug... there should be a paragraph break after the "chat" link and before the "We" at the beginning of the next sentence. In fact, it might look nice if it said: announce - a moderated list for official club announcements only chat - a non-moderated list for general discussions by club members board - board of directors club business discussions But you da boss... Mark From jbartolini at juno.com Mon Feb 12 19:03:09 2001 From: jbartolini at juno.com (Jim Bartolini) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] sjaa lists ready Message-ID: <20010212.190310.-4004827.0.jbartolini@juno.com> >>Any of you who want to be on the auto-approve list can just >>notify me and I'll add you. You can put me on the list..... Jim ................. 8-) ================================================================= Jim Bartolini ================================================================= From mojo at whiteoaks.com Mon Feb 12 19:30:34 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] sjaa lists ready -- announce?? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010212180408.027c4be8@indigoskies.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Mark Taylor wrote: > So if I understand it correctly, the seds subscriber list has been > duplicated over to the "sjaa-announce@sjaa.net" list. Both currently > operate, so anyone sending to either will still get their message out. Yes. Shortly the seds address will forward to sjaa.net. > Does that mean it's time to send a message to "sjaa-announce" > announcing that the list has been moved, and that people should > change their address books and mail filters accordingly? Give it a couple days to settle. :) > And perhaps in a *separate* message... should we also send out (on > the "announce" list) an invitation to join the "sjaa-chat" list? Likewise, and I'm writing an Ephemeris article. Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From mojo at whiteoaks.com Mon Feb 12 20:01:47 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris article Message-ID: Okay guys, rip this up for me. It's going in the Ephemeris tonight, so I'll have to hear soon if I screwed the pooch. :) Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com You've Got Mail Morris Jones To some people, "too much of a good thing" is just enough. To others, a little moderation is called for. In search of the perfect email list, SJAA is now offering two to choose from, and new tools for managing your list options. The old sjaa@seds.org list is now sjaa-announce@sjaa.net. All of the existing subscriptions have been moved to that list. The new list is moderated to prevent spam and off-topic postings. The traffic on this list should be low -- its charter is for timely announcements relating to SJAA business. We recommend that all SJAA members be members of this email list! Now just for fun, we've added the sjaa-chat list, sjaa-chat@sjaa.net. Its charter is more wide-ranging and unmoderated. The chat list is intended for more social discussion related to SJAA activities. Joining the sjaa-chat list is not automatic -- you can join by following links from our web page at www.sjaa.net, or go to this URL: http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaa-chat. There's one more list that you might want to know about. The SJAA board of directors is currently making great use of email to discuss business and aid in setting the agenda and programs for the club. Interested SJAA members are welcome to join the list and collect the board's chatter, or just review the discussions on the list archive. To join, go here: http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard, and to browse the archive, try http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard. But be warned, the discussion can get pretty voluminous! We hope these options will help everyone find exactly the right email service to enhance your SJAA membership experience. From bill at nineplanets.org Mon Feb 12 20:24:22 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] sjaa lists ready -- announce?? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010212180408.027c4be8@indigoskies.com> Message-ID: on 2/12/01 6:30 PM, Mark Taylor wrote: > Bill, Mojo, etc... > > So if I understand it correctly, the seds subscriber list has been > duplicated over to the "sjaa-announce@sjaa.net" list. Both currently > operate, so anyone sending to either will still get their message out. I unsub-ed everyone except myself from the seds list. If anyone posts, I'll forward it (if I think it's appropriate :-) > ... That's a whole lot of announcing going on!) Mojo's Ephemeris article ought to be sufficient. But posting it once on the announce list without follow-ups and discussion ought to be ok. > Bill: The mailing list page has a formatting bug... Thanks. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From jane at whiteoaks.com Mon Feb 12 20:47:49 2001 From: jane at whiteoaks.com (Jane Houston Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris article References: Message-ID: <3A88BC74.DF52D1F5@whiteoaks.com> Morris Jones wrote: > Okay guys, rip this up for me. It's going in the Ephemeris tonight, > so I'll have to hear soon if I screwed the pooch. :) I like the article the way it is! Nice work, Mr. Jones! -- Jane Houston Jones San Rafael, CA jane@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From jvn at sjpc.org Mon Feb 12 21:05:18 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris article References: Message-ID: <3A88C08E.62B3@sjpc.org> Morris Jones wrote: > > Okay guys, rip this up for me. It's going in the Ephemeris tonight, > so I'll have to hear soon if I screwed the pooch. :) Good. If chat gets too noisy, we may have to tinker a bit, but let's see how it flies. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From jvn at sjpc.org Mon Feb 12 23:05:52 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] My absence, Feb.14-16 Message-ID: <3A88DCD0.47A3@sjpc.org> Hi, all, I'll be visiting my daughter in Sutter Creek, CA from Feb.14 mid-morning thru Friday late afternoon. I'll try to keep up on my e-mail, but not as often as when at home. Mike Coop has the key, so I'm not needed at Houge Park Friday evening. Since there's a bunch of unpacking before I could load any telescopes, I probably won't be at Houge. Clear Skies! -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From mojo at whiteoaks.com Tue Feb 13 01:22:39 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Nothing on auction :( Message-ID: Just so you all know ... I have no copy at all about the April auction and swap, aside from a line in the Activities Calendar. So it's too late at this point to get anything in the March Ephemeris. I would suggest that if you want something to appear in any other club newsletters that someone needs to write something and post it to the AANC Editors list as soon as possible. Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Feb 13 05:00:41 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] sjaa lists ready References: Message-ID: <3A892FF9.2C1E@aenet.net> Morris Jones wrote: > > I've created the two lists, and populated the announce list with > the current members of the sjaa list. > > Announce list: > > Posting aliases: > sjaa-announce@sjaa.net > announce@sjaa.net > sjaa@sjaa.net I think having "sjaa" be an alias for the announcement-only list is not a good idea. Too easy to confuse it for the "general" club list. If I wasn't an "insider," I could easily see myself making that mistake. Gary > Chat list: > > Posting aliases: > sjaa-chat@sjaa.net > chat@sjaa.net From sjaa at indigoskies.com Tue Feb 13 09:47:35 2001 From: sjaa at indigoskies.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010213094715.02a37888@indigoskies.com> At 08:01 PM 2/12/2001 -0800, Morris Jones wrote: >Okay guys, rip this up for me. I like it. From north at znet.com Tue Feb 13 09:52:02 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris article References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010213094715.02a37888@indigoskies.com> Message-ID: <3A897441.6D96B168@znet.com> m: >>I like it.<< Me too. Looks fine. d From bartolij at POM-EMH1.ARMY.MIL Tue Feb 13 09:50:09 2001 From: bartolij at POM-EMH1.ARMY.MIL (Bartolini, Jim) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris article Message-ID: <9112B1E00AB4D311A9F3009027AF88B602E9CD8C@pom-emh1.army.mil> > From: Dave North [SMTP:north@znet.com] > >>>>m: >>I like it.<< >>Me too. Looks fine. Okey by me, too..... Jim ........... :-) ================================================= Jim Bartolini ================================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20010213/72ab7bba/attachment.html From bill at nineplanets.org Tue Feb 13 10:47:45 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] sjaa lists ready In-Reply-To: <3A892FF9.2C1E@aenet.net> Message-ID: on 2/13/01 5:00 AM, Gary Mitchell wrote: >... I think having "sjaa" be an alias for the announcement-only list > is not a good idea. Too easy to confuse it for the "general" club > list. If I wasn't an "insider," I could easily see myself making > that mistake. Maybe. But the harm is not great. The posting will be held for approval and the listowner will get it straightened out. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From akkana at shallowsky.com Tue Feb 13 10:55:35 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris article In-Reply-To: ; from mojo@whiteoaks.com on Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 08:01:47PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20010213105535.A99055@shallowsky.com> Morris Jones writes: > Okay guys, rip this up for me. It's going in the Ephemeris tonight, > so I'll have to hear soon if I screwed the pooch. :) I didn't get to read this 'til this morning -- but it looks great, no corrections or changes to suggest. ...Akkana From jane at whiteoaks.com Tue Feb 13 11:05:57 2001 From: jane at whiteoaks.com (Jane Houston Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris article References: <20010213105535.A99055@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3A898595.B76330C1@whiteoaks.com> Good thing all, because it's done and gone for this month. Jane Akkana wrote: > Morris Jones writes: > > Okay guys, rip this up for me. It's going in the Ephemeris tonight, > > so I'll have to hear soon if I screwed the pooch. :) > > I didn't get to read this 'til this morning -- but it looks great, > no corrections or changes to suggest. > > ...Akkana > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard -- Jane Houston Jones San Rafael, CA jane@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Feb 13 23:22:02 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris article References: Message-ID: <3A8A321A.678E@aenet.net> Morris Jones wrote: > > Okay guys, rip this up for me. It's going in the Ephemeris tonight, > so I'll have to hear soon if I screwed the pooch. :) Works for me...the pooch remains unscrewed IMO. :) Gary From jimvn at juno.com Thu Feb 15 00:41:48 2001 From: jimvn at juno.com (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Nothing on auction :( Message-ID: <20010215.004202.-4076341.5.JimVN@juno.com> Morris Jones wrote: > > Just so you all know ... > > I have no copy at all about the April auction and swap, aside from a > line in the Activities Calendar. So it's too late at this point to > get anything in the March Ephemeris. After much patient help from Mike Coop, I've located the Minutes and e-mail from the summer board meeting, at which the vote was taken to run the auction before the swap meet. My points seem to have been represented at that meeting, so I agree that the auction shall come first this year. It is frightening to me that I have no memory of that material, hence my earlier quip to the effect that it had not been formally decided. Regarding Morris' request, one or more of Dave, BillA, Akkana, and xxxxxx (forgot), the 4 who voted for the motion, should prepare the publicity and run the day. Below is the material that I had used in the past, with editing to accommodate the 2001 format. I recall that Dave had suggested some hours, but I don't know just what they were. So I put (DAVE) in those places, given that Dave has been (if memory has not again failed) the primary mover for the new procedure. It needs reasons and explanations, too. Then post it. One of you has crudely questioned my memory. So have I! During June 2000, I received 28 radiation treatments for bowel cancer, which made me somewhat ill during most of the summer. Perhaps it was the fear, fatigue, the depression, or the pressure of all the running, that messed up my memory of that period. N.B! I am not complaining or asking for pity, only understanding. Every time I've been tempted to complain, I've met other patients who have it a whole heck of a lot worse. So this isn't a complaint, but simply a description of that period. I am exceedingly happy to relate that all tests and examinations have been entirely favorable. Of course, monitoring will continue. One last thing: I wish to step back from the actual workings of the auction on that day. I've pounded the computer for 19 years, and it's time to hand it to younger, smarter people. My auction program is a creaky old thing; it would be nice to have a more modern one that can allow a buyer to check out without the need to hold up the entire auction. And it needs a better way to allow more than one computer to be used during registration. This means interconnected machines and a shared database. I have zero experience with that sort of thing, and have no idea where to start. I left IBM in 1987, just as LANs, distributed computing, etc. began to come into use. Besides, I'm out of old IBM cards! :-) My program and source code is available for examination or use. =============================================== List of recipients: To: contacts@aanc-astronomy.org All of AANC clubs' officers To: sjaa-announce@sjaa.net Club's announce list (MORRIS?) To: 73737.1102@compuserve.com Westphal, ALPO To: adastra@garlic.com Joe Sunseri To: croberts@cosc.org Carter Roberts To: dtye@jps.net Dennis Tye, regular To: greenberg1@llnl.gov Steve Greenberg To: loki_patera@juno.com Mike Detweiler To: paulb@best.com HVAG To: tiahl@gte.net Tom Ahl To: vanslagerf@aol.com Frank Vanslager To: jvn@svpal.org To club officers: If you are not a newsletter editor, please check that your editor is on the distribution, and forward if not. If your club has a mailing list, please consider sending this along. To editors: Please include mention of our event in your calendar or elsewhere in your newsletter. The following has all the details so that you know how the event is conducted. Summarize as space permits. Thanks much! Clear Skies! AUCTION XXI On Sunday, April 8, an astronomical auction and swap meet will be conducted at Houge (city) Park in San Jose. Sponsored by the San Jose Astronomical Association, this is our only fund-raiser. There are two changes this year. (1) We are doing the event on Sunday, to avoid the uncontrollable conflict with the child care program that has and can pre-empt our reservation for the hall at Houge Park. And (2) a much bigger change: the Auction will be conducted *prior* to the Swap Meet. This is to (DAVE REASON 1) and to make (DAVE REASON2), so we hope it will (DAVE HOPE 1, DAVE HOPE 2). Doors open at DAVE (or only slightly before) for registration of material for the Auction, and for viewing of the auction material. Selling will begin at (DAVE), and will run as long as needed. Settle-up is done afterward by one check to (or from) SJAA, then the items may be claimed. Seller pays 10% commission. Seller specifies minimum bid; if not met, it goes back to the seller with no commission applied. Then at (DAVE), material for the Swap Meet will be allowed into the hall. Each buyer pays the seller. Sellers are to keep track of their sales, and pay a 10% commission. For big items, there's a cap of $50/item. There are no table fees other than a $1 requested donation for the auction bidder/seller number. We do not handle charge cards. The commissions are tax-deductible, as SJAA is a 403(c)(3) educational organization. DIRECTIONS: From Hwy.17, take the Camden Avenue exit. Go east 0.4 miles, and turn right at the light, onto Bascom Avenue. At the next light, turn left onto Woodard Road. At the first stop sign, turn right onto Twilight Drive. Go three blocks, cross Sunrise Drive, then turn left into the park. From Hwy.85, take the Bascom Avenue exit. Go north about 0.2 miles, and turn right at the first traffic light, onto White Oaks Road. At the first stop sign (another 0.2), turn left onto Twilight Drive. You will now be passing the park. Turn right at the first driveway, into the parking lot. For more about SJAA, visit our web site at: http://www.sjaa.net SJAA's web site. -- Jim Van Nuland. Replies should go to jvn@sjpc.org, as this is a travel address. http://www.svpal.org/~jvn/ Jim's web page From north at znet.com Thu Feb 15 09:41:03 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction References: <20010215.004202.-4076341.5.JimVN@juno.com> Message-ID: <3A8C14AA.34E77F79@znet.com> Jim, thanks for the opportunity to clarify the muzzy questions. I don't think my suggestions should be viewed as final, and further review is a good idea. I've attached a text file with my interpretation of the proper way to handle it. You new guys (and other interested parties) note that though I'm still President (through an organizational fluke having to do with the election of officers at the next meeting) I am *not* a member of the board and have no right to vote on this matter. So it will be up to y'all to decide what should be the final wording and approach. I cannot guarantee my presence at the auction (in fact, there's a good chance I'll be out of town and out of state at that time) so I cannot plan to help out on site. I would be glad to help set up software for whomever will be handling it; databases R us. Dave The text is included here, and as an attachment (will mailman handle them?) in case the line breaks are weird... ********* AUCTION XXI On Sunday, April 8, an astronomical auction and swap meet will be conducted at Houge (city) Park in San Jose. Sponsored by the San Jose Astronomical Association, this is our only fund-raiser. There are two changes this year. First, we are doing the event on Sunday, to avoid the uncontrollable conflict with the child care program that has and can pre-empt our reservation for the hall at Houge Park. Second, the Auction will be conducted *prior* to the Swap Meet. This way, any items that do not get a minimum bid can be offered at Swap with the price adjusted down accordingly (and the auction will serve as a mini-ad for the item!) Doors open at 11:30 am (or only slightly before) to register material for the Auction, and view the auction material. Selling will begin at noon, and will run as long as needed. Settle-up is done afterward by one check to (or from) SJAA, then the items may be claimed. Seller pays 10% commission. Seller specifies minimum bid; if not met, it goes back to the seller with no commission applied. We suggest pre-registering as much as possible; this will avoid a crush at the registration table, and we will be providing publicity for items registered in advance (via email and hopefully a reference web page). After the auction, material for the Swap Meet will be allowed into the hall. Each buyer pays the seller. Sellers are to keep track of their sales, and pay a 10% commission. For big items, there's a cap of $50/item. There are no table fees other than a $1 requested donation for the auction bidder/seller number. We do not handle charge cards. The commissions are tax-deductible, as SJAA is a 403(c)(3) educational organization. DIRECTIONS: From Hwy.17, take the Camden Avenue exit. Go east 0.4 miles, and turn right at the light, onto Bascom Avenue. At the next light, turn left onto Woodard Road. At the first stop sign, turn right onto Twilight Drive. Go three blocks, cross Sunrise Drive, then turn left into the park. From Hwy.85, take the Bascom Avenue exit. Go north about 0.2 miles, and turn right at the first traffic light, onto White Oaks Road. At the first stop sign (another 0.2), turn left onto Twilight Drive. You will now be passing the park. Turn right at the first driveway, into the parking lot. For more about SJAA, visit our web site at: http://www.sjaa.net SJAA's web site. -------------- next part -------------- AUCTION XXI On Sunday, April 8, an astronomical auction and swap meet will be conducted at Houge (city) Park in San Jose. Sponsored by the San Jose Astronomical Association, this is our only fund-raiser. There are two changes this year. First, we are doing the event on Sunday, to avoid the uncontrollable conflict with the child care program that has and can pre-empt our reservation for the hall at Houge Park. Second, the Auction will be conducted *prior* to the Swap Meet. This way, any items that do not get a minimum bid can be offered at Swap with the price adjusted down accordingly (and the auction will serve as a mini-ad for the item!) Doors open at 11:30 am (or only slightly before) to register material for the Auction, and view the auction material. Selling will begin at noon, and will run as long as needed. Settle-up is done afterward by one check to (or from) SJAA, then the items may be claimed. Seller pays 10% commission. Seller specifies minimum bid; if not met, it goes back to the seller with no commission applied. We suggest pre-registering as much as possible; this will avoid a crush at the registration table, and we will be providing publicity for items registered in advance (via email and hopefully a reference web page). After the auction, material for the Swap Meet will be allowed into the hall. Each buyer pays the seller. Sellers are to keep track of their sales, and pay a 10% commission. For big items, there's a cap of $50/item. There are no table fees other than a $1 requested donation for the auction bidder/seller number. We do not handle charge cards. The commissions are tax-deductible, as SJAA is a 403(c)(3) educational organization. DIRECTIONS: From Hwy.17, take the Camden Avenue exit. Go east 0.4 miles, and turn right at the light, onto Bascom Avenue. At the next light, turn left onto Woodard Road. At the first stop sign, turn right onto Twilight Drive. Go three blocks, cross Sunrise Drive, then turn left into the park. From Hwy.85, take the Bascom Avenue exit. Go north about 0.2 miles, and turn right at the first traffic light, onto White Oaks Road. At the first stop sign (another 0.2), turn left onto Twilight Drive. You will now be passing the park. Turn right at the first driveway, into the parking lot. For more about SJAA, visit our web site at: http://www.sjaa.net SJAA's web site. From bill at nineplanets.org Thu Feb 15 11:40:14 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction In-Reply-To: <3A8C14AA.34E77F79@znet.com> Message-ID: on 2/15/01 9:41 AM, Dave North wrote: > ... > I've attached a text file with my interpretation of the proper way to > handle it... Looks good from here. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From jimvn at juno.com Thu Feb 15 14:57:02 2001 From: jimvn at juno.com (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction Message-ID: <20010215.145801.-4005325.2.JimVN@juno.com> Dave North wrote: > > Jim, thanks for the opportunity to clarify the muzzy questions. I don't > think my suggestions should be viewed as final, and further review is a > good idea. > I've attached a text file with my interpretation of the proper way to > handle it. It's good as it goes, Dave, but I'm sure that the members / attendees will be most curious as to the reasons for doing the auction first. I was not at the board meeting where it was discussed, so I'm among the curious. > Second, the Auction will be conducted *prior* to the Swap Meet. This > way, any items that do not get a minimum bid can be offered at Swap with > the price adjusted down accordingly (and the auction will serve as a > mini-ad for the item!) Surely that isn't the entire explanation? Especially given that the seller can lower the minimum during the auction. -- Jim Van Nuland. Replies should go to jvn@sjpc.org, as this is a travel address. http://www.svpal.org/~jvn/ Jim's web page From sjaa at indigoskies.com Thu Feb 15 17:22:11 2001 From: sjaa at indigoskies.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction In-Reply-To: <20010215.145801.-4005325.2.JimVN@juno.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010215155101.02828128@indigoskies.com> At 02:57 PM 2/15/2001 -0800, Jim Van Nuland wrote: > > Second, the Auction will be conducted *prior* to the Swap Meet. This > > way, any items that do not get a minimum bid can be offered at Swap >with > > the price adjusted down accordingly (and the auction will serve as a > > mini-ad for the item!) > > Surely that isn't the entire explanation? Especially given that the >seller can lower the minimum during the auction. From my POV this is a good change because it allows the seller to extract the maximum price for his goods (and the club to extract the maximum cut!) Sellers have generally put their to-be-auctioned items on their swap table, and someone typically comes by and strikes a 1:1 deal (at least for the good stuff). There are three major problems with that: 1) It excludes those potential buyers who hadn't seen it yet and might have paid more. 2) It excludes the potential buyers who were "mulling it over" and would have offered more *if* they knew it was being actively sold to someone else 3) It takes the "hot" items out of the auction, leaving the less interesting stuff that doesn't generate much bidding (or often interest). Heated bid wars are what makes auctions fun! With the auction first, everyone will know when the much-coveted items are on the block, and will bit them up -- no private deals! (Cha-ching x 2) The major *potential* drawback to doing the auction first is that people have to be discouraged from putting (many) junk items into the auction in hopes of increasing their take-home. I think the original plan (as debated so many months ago) included an answer to this, but I may be mistaken. IIRC it was considered that there should be token a token fee per minimum-bid item registered. If it sells the fee comes out of the club's cut so there is no added expense to the seller. If it's a junk item, the seller had to pay to put it up. If wants to put up junk without a minimum bid, someone will bid a nickle and get it off the block (before it comes back to haunt us the following year). Mark From north at znet.com Thu Feb 15 17:36:55 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction References: <20010215.145801.-4005325.2.JimVN@juno.com> Message-ID: <3A8C8437.72C848E6@znet.com> Jim: >>It's good as it goes, Dave, but I'm sure that the members / attendees will be most curious as to the reasons for doing the auction first. I was not at the board meeting where it was discussed, so I'm among the curious.<< That's why. Was there something else you wanted to know? >>Surely that isn't the entire explanation? Especially given that the seller can lower the minimum during the auction.<< That's it! Oh, that and the fact that nobody goes to the auction in part because all the bargains at the swap meet evaporate in ten minutes (well, a half hour) and then they must wait hours and hours for the auction (which they don't). This way all the action is concentrated into about two hours, which Hollywood learned years ago is about the most time you can ask from the average american. You're free to add that, if you want, but really I don't know if it reads all that well. Is there a more politic way to say it? How about: this way you won't have to miss the auction because it happens too late in the day and you're headed off for dinner with the fam? Nah, that's not it either... Help me out here! dave From north at znet.com Thu Feb 15 17:39:17 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010215155101.02828128@indigoskies.com> Message-ID: <3A8C84C5.AA1088C8@znet.com> Mark: >>I think the original plan (as debated so many months ago) included an answer to this, but I may be mistaken.<< That and more! And they're good points. d From akkana at shallowsky.com Thu Feb 15 17:57:54 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010215155101.02828128@indigoskies.com>; from sjaa@indigoskies.com on Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 05:22:11PM -0800 References: <20010215.145801.-4005325.2.JimVN@juno.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010215155101.02828128@indigoskies.com> Message-ID: <20010215175754.F25121@shallowsky.com> Mark Taylor writes: [ A much better explanation than the one I was working on of the arguments in favor of auction first ] > The major *potential* drawback to doing the auction first is that people > have to be discouraged from putting (many) junk items into the auction in > hopes of increasing their take-home. > > I think the original plan (as debated so many months ago) included an > answer to this, but I may be mistaken. I think we stayed with the solution we came up with the previous year: namely, that the person in charge of registration (Jim at the time, TBD for this year) has the right to refuse any entry into the auction, or to discuss with the seller options like putting all the Griffith Observers (to use a purely hypothetical example :-) into one lot. > IIRC it was considered that there > should be token a token fee per minimum-bid item registered. If it sells > the fee comes out of the club's cut so there is no added expense to the That was definitely one of the ideas discussed, and IIRC most people thought it seemed reasonable, but thought that it probably wasn't needed as long as the registrar had right of refusal. (But someone who has a copy of the minutes might want to correct that.) Depending on who's doing registration and what the procedure is, it might be worthwhile for the board to reconsider a per-item bid, so that the problem is less likely to arise and no one has to be the "bad guy" to tell sellers not to auction their items. Speaking of registration procedure: I suggested to Mojo that I could write a cgi script that allowed people to preregister auction items by mail, to reduce the workload for whoever's doing the data entry on the day of the auction. Does that sound like a reasonable thing to do? The format produced by such a script should ideally be tailored to the software we're planning on using, but that's not decided yet. I think I heard Bill suggesting at the last meeting that a spreadsheet would be the appropriate approach, but I don't know if we have any spreadsheet programmers among us (or in the club) willing to help. I could write a perl script or perhaps a browser-driven set of pages to take auction entries, but that wouldn't give us anything that Jim's software doesn't already do (and his is already proven). ...Akkana From jvn at sjpc.org Thu Feb 15 23:41:01 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (jvn@sjpc.org) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction Message-ID: <200102160741.XAA18084@sjpc.sjpc.org> Dave North wrote: > > Jim: >>It's good as it goes, Dave, but I'm sure that the members / > attendees > will be most curious as to the reasons for doing the auction first. I > was not at the board meeting where it was discussed, so I'm among the > curious.<< > > That's why. Was there something else you wanted to know? > > >>Surely that isn't the entire explanation? Especially given that the > seller can lower the minimum during the auction.<< > > That's it! Oh, that and the fact that nobody goes to the auction in part > because all the bargains at the swap meet evaporate in ten minutes > (well, a half hour) and then they must wait hours and hours for the > auction (which they don't). This way all the action is concentrated into > about two hours, That seems right; Mark had also made some good points. I don't see how that can be put into the announcement in a compact manner. People will be curious, but the announcement can't get wordy or editors will not want to run all of it. Another worry: will (for instance) Joe Sunseri want to enter those hundreds of eyepieces into the auction? Is half an hour sufficient to register everything? A new auction program ideally would allow registration of bidder/sellers and of merchandise, even during the auction, as well as checking out. Perhaps many people will opt to come only for the swap. OTOH, if you can drum up interest as you did last year, it may work very well indeed. The most important thing, as I see it, is that the announcement makes it very clear what will happen when. And that it is sent real soon now. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page --------------------------------------------- This message was sent from http://www.sjpc.org From jane at whiteoaks.com Fri Feb 16 09:30:34 2001 From: jane at whiteoaks.com (Jane Houston Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction in club newsletters References: <200102160741.XAA18084@sjpc.sjpc.org> Message-ID: <3A8D63BA.A85BD557@whiteoaks.com> When you are ready and have an announcement ready to publish, you can send it to our AANC Editors email list or to the larger AANC Contacts list which includes some contacts in each club, science center, planetariums, in addition to the newsletter editors. http://www.aanc-astronomy.org/ We'll also place the Auction announcement prominently on our web page as it has been the past two years. You can see the text from the past years here: http://www.aanc-astronomy.org/SJAAauction.html Jane, AANC President -- Jane Houston Jones San Rafael, CA jane@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From north at znet.com Fri Feb 16 09:46:25 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction References: <200102160741.XAA18084@sjpc.sjpc.org> Message-ID: <3A8D676F.6A939665@znet.com> jvn: >>I don't see how that can be put into the announcement in a compact manner.<< Neither did I, but I sure don't want to discourage anyone who can! >>Another worry: will (for instance) Joe Sunseri want to enter those hundreds of eyepieces into the auction?<< I don't know if that would be a problem. If people bid on them, and they sell, all to the good. It might mean many things are sold at auction for good deals, and things run overlong. But that might turn out to be a good thing in the long run because... >>Is half an hour sufficient to register everything?<< Don't know. An hour might be better, huh? Depends on who wants to show up to do the registration. My hope is the preregistration will take care of most of it, but then again: is a half hour long enough to look over the "goods" for those who want to bid? Good question. >>A new auction program ideally would allow registration of bidder/sellers and of merchandise, even during the auction, as well as checking out.<< Assuming somebody picks up the ball on this one. But you're right. >>Perhaps many people will opt to come only for the swap. OTOH, if you can drum up interest as you did last year, it may work very well indeed.<< Year before last, actually. I dropped the ball last year. But continuing my earlier thought: if participation in the auction is light, but it runs long enough that people expecing to swap show up and see the good deals drifting away, you can bet the auction will see quite a bit of participation next year! Sometimes the first time out is just a set-up for the real pitch. >>The most important thing, as I see it, is that the announcement makes it very clear what will happen when.>> I agree completely. >>And that it is sent real soon now.<< I agree completely and then some! d From north at znet.com Fri Feb 16 12:39:01 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Treasurer References: <200102160741.XAA18084@sjpc.sjpc.org> <3A8D676F.6A939665@znet.com> Message-ID: <3A8D8FE4.3B2E01B8@znet.com> Mark, as you know, Gary Mitchell has volunteered to be Treasurer, saving just about everything there is to be saved. However, two things have to happen. 1. I have to get all the paperwork, checkbook, etc so I can bring things up to date with all the business that has piled up in recent weeks and then, 2. Hand off the stuff to Gary. I suspect doing it this way is best, as it will give him a sort of clean slate to start with. When can I get The Stuff? Dave From north at znet.com Fri Feb 16 12:41:53 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Treasurer References: <200102160741.XAA18084@sjpc.sjpc.org> <3A8D676F.6A939665@znet.com> <3A8D8FE4.3B2E01B8@znet.com> Message-ID: <3A8D9090.3C5A70D7@znet.com> Oh, and I forgot; we need to remove you and me from the checkwriting authority and add Gary, of course... Dave From jvn at sjpc.org Fri Feb 16 14:06:35 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction References: <200102160741.XAA18084@sjpc.sjpc.org> <3A8D676F.6A939665@znet.com> Message-ID: <3A8DA46B.2008@sjpc.org> Hi, all, Gary points out that SJAA is a 501(c)3 organization, not 403(c)(3). Whoever posts the final version, please make this correction. Sorry about the error. It was wrong in the 1999 and 2000 announcement as well, and I don't know how far back. And that's not due to the radiation business! -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From sjaa at indigoskies.com Fri Feb 16 14:45:41 2001 From: sjaa at indigoskies.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Treasurer In-Reply-To: <3A8D8FE4.3B2E01B8@znet.com> References: <200102160741.XAA18084@sjpc.sjpc.org> <3A8D676F.6A939665@znet.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010216134938.0282bb98@indigoskies.com> At 12:39 PM 2/16/2001 -0800, Dave North wrote: >Mark, as you know, Gary Mitchell has volunteered to be Treasurer, saving >just about everything there is to be saved. Yes. And THANK YOU VERY MUCH, Gary! :-) > However, two things have to happen. > 1. I have to get all the paperwork, checkbook, etc so I can bring >things up to date with all the business that has piled up in recent >weeks and then, I appreciate your offer to do the work for me, Dave, but it won't be necessary... I'm still on the job until the end of my elected term. As stated in my "letter of intent not to run for Treasurer again", I was in no way going to bail out before the end of my term, or rush off leaving things out of balance. I plan(ned) to end my term with a tidy package for hand-off in March. There really isn't that much to do, anyway; I've managed to keep things neat and balanced (though sometimes more slowly that I'd like) and even have a nice file box full of bill stubs and such from the start of my 2 terms. The specific "to do" items on my list were basically what you listed: - the processing of any outstanding bills and deposits that have arrived (i.e. "the usual drill") -- which requires getting them from you one last time (which we'll need to work out). - one final balancing of the accounts against the bank (also part of the usual drill) - and getting the bank signature card updated**, which has to wait until after Elections when a copy of the minutes can be produced for the bank. - Getting the "treasurer@sjaa.net" alias redirected as appropriate (and presumably the other officer aliases, too) - Reminding BillA and Mojo about the web/boilerplate changes. >2. Hand off the stuff to Gary. I suspect doing it this way is best, as >it will give him a sort of clean slate to start with. Exactly my intent. (Ooo... 2:45 -- off to another meeting. Yeehaa!!) Mark ** This requires a copy of the minutes from the Election and the nominating of who has signing authority. This should be Gary and at least one other officer (currently it's two: Pres and Secty). We obviously can't make this change until after the next meeting. From north at znet.com Fri Feb 16 15:00:23 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Treasurer References: <200102160741.XAA18084@sjpc.sjpc.org> <3A8D676F.6A939665@znet.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010216134938.0282bb98@indigoskies.com> Message-ID: <3A8DB107.1D69D118@znet.com> So, Mark, I should get the latest load of stuff to you...? Dave From sjaa at indigoskies.com Fri Feb 16 16:13:37 2001 From: sjaa at indigoskies.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Treasurer In-Reply-To: <3A8DB107.1D69D118@znet.com> References: <200102160741.XAA18084@sjpc.sjpc.org> <3A8D676F.6A939665@znet.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010216134938.0282bb98@indigoskies.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010216161130.02833580@indigoskies.com> At 03:00 PM 2/16/2001 -0800, Dave North wrote: >So, Mark, I should get the latest load of stuff to you...? Anytime, but nothing new to me in the last week before the big meeting if I'm to have time to get it all processed and neat. You could even get some to me this week, and some more next week if you want... Thanks, Mark From wb6yru at aenet.net Sun Feb 18 04:17:15 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] the chat remailer Message-ID: <3A8FBD4B.6735@aenet.net> I noticed a reply to a post to sjaa-chat goes to the original sender. That's appropriate for sjaa-announce, but I don't think it's a good idea for sjaa-chat, or any *discussion* remailer. Would anyone get really bent out of shape if sjaa-chat points back to itself? If not, I request that be done. Gary From sjaa at indigoskies.com Sun Feb 18 08:07:32 2001 From: sjaa at indigoskies.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] the chat remailer In-Reply-To: <3A8FBD4B.6735@aenet.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010218080601.0283aaa0@indigoskies.com> At 04:17 AM 2/18/2001 -0800, Gary Mitchell wrote: >Would anyone get really bent out of shape if sjaa-chat points back >to itself? Not me; I thought that's how it was supposed to be configured, based on earlier conversations about which list should use which reply model. Mark From akkana at shallowsky.com Sun Feb 18 12:16:52 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] the chat remailer In-Reply-To: <3A8FBD4B.6735@aenet.net>; from wb6yru@aenet.net on Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 04:17:15AM -0800 References: <3A8FBD4B.6735@aenet.net> Message-ID: <20010218121652.B50564@shallowsky.com> Gary Mitchell writes: > I noticed a reply to a post to sjaa-chat goes to the original > sender. That's appropriate for sjaa-announce, but I don't think > it's a good idea for sjaa-chat, or any *discussion* remailer. > Would anyone get really bent out of shape if sjaa-chat points back > to itself? If not, I request that be done. I was against it, for the reasons I gave at the meeting and in the previous email discussion. Lists that point back to the sender make it easy to choose whether a reply will be public or private; lists that point back to the list make it very hard for most people to reply privately, resulting in a lot noise like "Nice image!" and "Oops, I meant that last reply to be private". I thought this list was meant as a lower-traffic, more focused list than TAC, not a place for general chatter. There was no consensus at the board meeting, and no vote was taken. The decision was that it's up to Mojo and Bill to set up the list the way they think best, and I'm fine with whatever they decide. I'm not even on the board any more, so I wouldn't have a vote in the matter even if y'all decide to vote; I'm just giving my views so you hear both sides. ...Akkana From mojo at whiteoaks.com Sun Feb 18 12:43:05 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] the chat remailer In-Reply-To: <3A8FBD4B.6735@aenet.net> Message-ID: Yeah I kind of agree with this. Mojo On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, Gary Mitchell wrote: > I noticed a reply to a post to sjaa-chat goes to the original > sender. That's appropriate for sjaa-announce, but I don't think > it's a good idea for sjaa-chat, or any *discussion* remailer. > Would anyone get really bent out of shape if sjaa-chat points back > to itself? If not, I request that be done. > > Gary > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From bill at nineplanets.org Sun Feb 18 14:15:59 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] the chat remailer In-Reply-To: <20010218121652.B50564@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: on 2/18/01 12:16 PM, Akkana wrote: > Gary Mitchell writes: >> I noticed a reply to a post to sjaa-chat goes to the original >> sender. That's appropriate for sjaa-announce, but I don't think >> it's a good idea for sjaa-chat, or any *discussion* remailer. >> Would anyone get really bent out of shape if sjaa-chat points back >> to itself? If not, I request that be done. > > I was against it, for the reasons I gave at the meeting and in > the previous email discussion. Lists that point back to the sender > make it easy to choose whether a reply will be public or private; > lists that point back to the list make it very hard for most people > to reply privately, resulting in a lot noise like "Nice image!" > and "Oops, I meant that last reply to be private". I thought this > list was meant as a lower-traffic, more focused list than TAC, > not a place for general chatter. Right. With my mailer if I say cmd-R (regular reply) it goes to the sender and if I say shift-cmd-R (reply to all) then it goes to both; if I want it only to one or the other I can simply delete one. > There was no consensus at the board meeting, and no vote was taken. > The decision was that it's up to Mojo and Bill ... I like it the way it is but I'll change if if the rest of feel strongly about it. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From wb6yru at aenet.net Mon Feb 19 01:30:15 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] the chat remailer References: Message-ID: <3A90E7A7.4C59@aenet.net> Bill Arnett wrote: > > on 2/18/01 12:16 PM, Akkana wrote: > > > Gary Mitchell writes: > >> I noticed a reply to a post to sjaa-chat goes to the original > >> sender. That's appropriate for sjaa-announce, but I don't think > >> it's a good idea for sjaa-chat, or any *discussion* remailer. > >> Would anyone get really bent out of shape if sjaa-chat points back > >> to itself? If not, I request that be done. > > > > I was against it, for the reasons I gave at the meeting and in > > the previous email discussion. Lists that point back to the sender > > make it easy to choose whether a reply will be public or private; > > lists that point back to the list make it very hard for most people > > to reply privately, resulting in a lot noise like "Nice image!" > > and "Oops, I meant that last reply to be private". I thought this > > list was meant as a lower-traffic, more focused list than TAC, > > not a place for general chatter. > > Right. With my mailer if I say cmd-R (regular reply) it goes to the sender > and if I say shift-cmd-R (reply to all) then it goes to both; if I want it > only to one or the other I can simply delete one. My e-mail program won't do that, I have to delete the sender's address and type in sjaa-chat@sjaa.net. It's not convenient and IMHO defeats the purpose of a chat remailer. As to Akkana's comment... My experience has been that it's no easier to have the remailer point back to the sender, and it causes other problems. I'm on another club discussion remailer that did it that way. Too often people would simply hit reply without thinking. Part of the discussion shows up on the remailer and part doesn't. We finally changed it to point back to the remailer and it has run *much* smoother every since. The problems Akkana cites do happen, but are so few and far between, they aren't an issue. Maybe it would be worse here, but I doubt it. Gary From akkana at shallowsky.com Mon Feb 19 12:01:42 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] the chat remailer In-Reply-To: <3A90E7A7.4C59@aenet.net>; from wb6yru@aenet.net on Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 01:30:15AM -0800 References: <3A90E7A7.4C59@aenet.net> Message-ID: <20010219120142.A87824@shallowsky.com> > Bill Arnett wrote: > > Right. With my mailer if I say cmd-R (regular reply) it goes to the sender > > and if I say shift-cmd-R (reply to all) then it goes to both; if I want it > > only to one or the other I can simply delete one. Gary Mitchell writes: > My e-mail program won't do that, I have to delete the sender's > address and type in sjaa-chat@sjaa.net. It's not convenient > and IMHO defeats the purpose of a chat remailer. Gary, you sent this message with Netscape 3.0. I just checked, and NS 3.0 has "Re: Mail" and "Re: All" right on the toolbar, and in the Message menu it lists the exact same key bindings Bill described in his mailer. > As to Akkana's comment... My experience has been that it's no > easier to have the remailer point back to the sender, and it > causes other problems. I'm on another club discussion remailer The reason it's easier is that every modern GUI mailer offers reply and reply all, but very few of them offer a "reply to sender" option that works if the list's reply-to points back to the list. Modern line-mode Unix mailers (pine and mutt) offer this option, but that's no help to people on Windows. In mailers like Netscape, it's very hard to reply to the sender if the reply-to points back to the list -- you have to delete the To field, then copy/paste or type in the address of the sender, and it's very easy to miss a character or make a typo, getting the address wrong. > The problems Akkana cites do happen, but are so few and far > between, they aren't an issue. Maybe it would be worse here, > but I doubt it. I've seen at least three "oops, that was meant to be private" messages posted to TAC just in the last week. And those are just the ones that got posted to the list. ...Akkana From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Feb 20 00:28:10 2001 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] the chat remailer References: <3A90E7A7.4C59@aenet.net> <20010219120142.A87824@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3A922A9A.2ABF@aenet.net> Akkana wrote: > > > Bill Arnett wrote: > > > Right. With my mailer if I say cmd-R (regular reply) it goes to the sender > > > and if I say shift-cmd-R (reply to all) then it goes to both; if I want it > > > only to one or the other I can simply delete one. > > Gary Mitchell writes: > > My e-mail program won't do that, I have to delete the sender's > > address and type in sjaa-chat@sjaa.net. It's not convenient > > and IMHO defeats the purpose of a chat remailer. > > Gary, you sent this message with Netscape 3.0. I just checked, > and NS 3.0 has "Re: Mail" and "Re: All" right on the toolbar, > and in the Message menu it lists the exact same key bindings > Bill described in his mailer. I tried it before writting that and it didn't work, both ways it went back to the sender. Upon trying it again, I see the Reply-all CC's to the chat address with the To field only containing the originator. Maybe I mis-clicked or didn't notice the CC field before. But still, this requires some fooling around if I want the reply to go only to the list. Either that, or just let the sender get a duplicate. > > As to Akkana's comment... My experience has been that it's no > > easier to have the remailer point back to the sender, and it > > causes other problems. I'm on another club discussion remailer > > The reason it's easier is that every modern GUI mailer offers > reply and reply all, but very few of them offer a "reply to sender" > option that works if the list's reply-to points back to the list. > Modern line-mode Unix mailers (pine and mutt) offer this option, > but that's no help to people on Windows. In mailers like Netscape, > it's very hard to reply to the sender if the reply-to points back > to the list -- you have to delete the To field, then copy/paste or > type in the address of the sender, and it's very easy to miss a > character or make a typo, getting the address wrong. That's exactly what I end up having to do to go back to the chat list. It's annoying. > > The problems Akkana cites do happen, but are so few and far > > between, they aren't an issue. Maybe it would be worse here, > > but I doubt it. > > I've seen at least three "oops, that was meant to be private" > messages posted to TAC just in the last week. And those are just > the ones that got posted to the list. I'm not on the TAC list. But on that other remailer I mentioned, it isn't a problem. Even on the TAC list, if you look at it as a percentage, is it really so high as to be a significant problem? How many messages are there per week? Gary From jvn at sjpc.org Tue Feb 20 20:27:37 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] [Fwd: Peggy's SJAA 3/10/01 Presentstion Ready] Message-ID: <3A9343B9.4DEB@sjpc.org> I have the big screen; who has the overhead and slide projectors? Let Peggy know that we'll have it. Clear Skies! -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Peggy Bernard" Subject: Peggy's SJAA 3/10/01 Presentstion Ready Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:32:53 -0800 Size: 1973 Url: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20010220/377c74d0/attachment.mht From mojo at whiteoaks.com Wed Feb 21 10:34:21 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] [Fwd: Peggy's SJAA 3/10/01 Presentstion Ready] In-Reply-To: <3A9343B9.4DEB@sjpc.org> Message-ID: That'd be me. They'll be there. Mojo On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Jim Van Nuland wrote: > I have the big screen; who has the overhead and slide projectors? > > Let Peggy know that we'll have it. > > Clear Skies! > -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From mojo at whiteoaks.com Wed Feb 21 10:39:21 2001 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] equipment ... Message-ID: Over the next few weeks we're going to be emptying my house in Campbell and prepping it for sale. I'm going to need someone else to take custody of the following: slide projector overhead projector small broken projection screen Coffee supplies I'm pretty sure we'll be able to deliver them to the March meeting, but if I learn otherwise I'll let you know. Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From koopm at best.com Wed Feb 21 10:44:44 2001 From: koopm at best.com (Michael Koop) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] [Fwd: Peggy's SJAA 3/10/01 Presentstion Ready] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll send a reminder on Thursday before the meeting. Mike On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Morris Jones wrote: > That'd be me. They'll be there. > > Mojo > > On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Jim Van Nuland wrote: > > > I have the big screen; who has the overhead and slide projectors? > > > > Let Peggy know that we'll have it. > > > > Clear Skies! > > > > -- > Morris Jones <*> > San Rafael, CA > mojo@whiteoaks.com > http://www.whiteoaks.com > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > From jvn at sjpc.org Wed Feb 21 20:57:41 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Geoffery Marcy References: Message-ID: <3A949C45.30AA@sjpc.org> Hi, Peggy, Seems to me that you might have a slight "in" with Dr.Marcy -- would you like to invite him to speak to SJAA? And tell him that you'll be speaking in March? Available dates are May 5, Jun.2, July 7, Aug.4, Oct.6, Nov.3, Dec.1, 2001. Thanks much! -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page Bob Garfinkle wrote: > > February 21, 2001 > > Hi Jim, > > Nice talking to you this afternoon. Hope we can get Marcy. > > Here is his e-mail: > > gmarcy@etoile.berkeley.edu > > Take care. > > Robert A. Garfinkle, F.R.A.S. > 32924 Monrovia Street > Union City, CA 94587 USA > E-mail: ragarf@earthlink.net From jvn at sjpc.org Thu Feb 22 15:28:52 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction publicity due out 2 weeks ago! Message-ID: <3A95A0B4.77CA@sjpc.org> The announcement for the auction should have gone out last week, so clubs would have it in their March newsletters. If it went, please send a copy to me for my file, and ignore the rest of this note. With the assumption that nothing is happening, I've taken Dave's draft, added a sentence of explanation. I've also added the preamble to editors. ISSUES: (1) I believe that half an hour is too short, and would be more comfortable with the 10 a.m. opening that Dave suggested back at the July (?) board meeting. (2) That line about pre-registration must be clarified. Dave/Akkana/Bill, have you decided anything about software? And computers? And operators? BTW, in the past, pre-registration didn't help except for dealers. OTOH, Dave's list of Good Stuff was very effective! Maybe it's best to drop the pre-registration paragraph, but write to Joe Sunseri and ask what he'd like to do, and maybe pre-register his material. (3) The stuff for auction day can wait, but the publicity better go Real Soon Now or we'll be out of there Real Soon on auction day. Shall I send this out with my proposed changes (above)? Shall we have an auction?? -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page =================================================== List of recipients: To: contacts@aanc-astronomy.org All of AANC clubs' officers To: sjaa-announce@sjaa.net Club's announce list To: 73737.1102@compuserve.com Westphal, ALPO To: adastra@garlic.com Joe Sunseri To: croberts@cosc.org Carter Roberts To: dtye@jps.net Dennis Tye, regular To: greenberg1@llnl.gov Steve Greenberg To: paulb@best.com HVAG To: tiahl@gte.net Tom Ahl To: vanslagerf@aol.com Frank Vanslager To: jvn@svpal.org To club officers: If you are not a newsletter editor, please check that your editor is on the distribution, and forward if not. To editors: Please include mention of our event in your calendar or elsewhere in your newsletter. The following has all the details so that you know how the Auction is conducted. Summarize as space permits. Thanks much! Clear Skies! Jim. AUCTION XXI On Sunday, April 8, 2001, an astronomical auction and swap meet will be conducted at Houge (city) Park in San Jose. Sponsored by the San Jose Astronomical Association, this is our only fund raiser. There are two changes this year. First, we are doing the event on Sunday, to avoid the uncontrollable conflict with the child care program that has and can pre-empt our reservation for the hall at Houge Park. Second, the Auction will be conducted *prior* to the Swap Meet. Any items that do not get a minimum bid can be offered at Swap with the price adjusted down accordingly. More important, it is hoped that the delays will be shortened, Doors open at 11:30 am (or only slightly before) to register material for the Auction, and view the auction material. Selling will begin at noon, and will run as long as needed. Settle-up is done afterward by one check to (or from) SJAA, then the items may be claimed. Seller pays 10% commission. Seller specifies minimum bid; if not met, it goes back to the seller with no commission applied. We suggest pre-registering as much as possible; this will avoid a crush at the registration table, and we will be providing publicity for items registered in advance (via email and hopefully a reference web page). After the auction, material for the Swap Meet will be allowed into the hall. Each buyer pays the seller. Sellers are to keep track of their sales, and pay a 10% commission. For big items, there's a cap of $50/item. There are no table fees other than a $1 requested donation for the auction bidder/seller number. We do not handle charge cards. The commissions are tax-deductible, as SJAA is a 401(c)(3) educational organization. DIRECTIONS: From Hwy.17, take the Camden Avenue exit. Go east 0.4 miles, and turn right at the light, onto Bascom Avenue. At the next light, turn left onto Woodard Road. At the first stop sign, turn right onto Twilight Drive. Go three blocks, cross Sunrise Drive, then turn left into the park. From Hwy.85, take the Bascom Avenue exit. Go north about 0.2 miles, and turn right at the first traffic light, onto White Oaks Road. At the first stop sign (another 0.2), turn left onto Twilight Drive. You will now be passing the park. Turn right at the first driveway, into the parking lot. For more about SJAA, visit our web site at http://www.sjaa.net From akkana at shallowsky.com Thu Feb 22 15:53:11 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction publicity due out 2 weeks ago! In-Reply-To: <3A95A0B4.77CA@sjpc.org>; from jvn@sjpc.org on Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:28:52PM -0800 References: <3A95A0B4.77CA@sjpc.org> Message-ID: <20010222155311.L45919@shallowsky.com> Jim Van Nuland writes: > ISSUES: > > (1) I believe that half an hour is too short, and would be more > comfortable with the 10 a.m. opening that Dave suggested back at the > July (?) board meeting. I think Jim's probably right about that. > (2) That line about pre-registration must be clarified. > Dave/Akkana/Bill, have you decided anything about software? And > computers? And operators? BTW, in the past, pre-registration didn't That's up to the board to decide. I'll help with making a preregistration page (though I was hoping to know something about the format beforehand). Bill seems to know something about spreadsheets, I can't help with that. > help except for dealers. OTOH, Dave's list of Good Stuff was very > effective! Maybe it's best to drop the pre-registration paragraph, but > write to Joe Sunseri and ask what he'd like to do, and maybe > pre-register his material. Really? I thought quite a few people preregistered last year. Did we not enter that into the computer ahead of time? If not, we should. If Bill wants to fix a location for a preregistration page on the sjaa site (initially saying "Coming soon" or something like that) so that it can be included in the announcements, I'll commit to implementing it RSN (before all these club newsletters actually get printed and people start trying to use the page). ...Akkana From north at znet.com Thu Feb 22 16:10:53 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction publicity due out 2 weeks ago! References: <3A95A0B4.77CA@sjpc.org> Message-ID: <3A95AA8C.52F5970A@znet.com> Jim: >>That line about pre-registration must be clarified. Dave/Akkana/Bill, have you decided anything about software?<< I am no longer on the board and will not be present (probably) at the event. No comment other than "good luck!" >>OTOH, Dave's list of Good Stuff was very effective!<< Yes it was, to the tune of well over $1000 for the club, as I recall. Y'all have fun; I really can't help you on this one. Dave From bill at nineplanets.org Thu Feb 22 16:16:07 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction publicity due out 2 weeks ago! In-Reply-To: <20010222155311.L45919@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: on 2/22/01 3:53 PM, Akkana wrote: > ...If Bill wants to fix a location for a preregistration page on the sjaa > site (initially saying "Coming soon" or something like that) so that it > can be included in the announcements, I'll commit to implementing it > RSN OK, it's at http://www.sjaa.net/auction.html You can just copy the source, hack it up and send it back to me. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From jvn at sjpc.org Thu Feb 22 22:35:23 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] [Fwd: From WAA Secretary - Membership reminder.] Message-ID: <3A9604AB.119A@sjpc.org> Presumably we'd like to continue as members of WAA? -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Jon Jay Wilson Subject: From WAA Secretary - Membership reminder. Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:52:47 -0800 Size: 2891 Url: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20010222/ae8ca00e/attachment.mht From bill at nineplanets.org Fri Feb 23 00:10:11 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] [Fwd: From WAA Secretary - Membership reminder.] In-Reply-To: <3A9604AB.119A@sjpc.org> Message-ID: on 2/22/01 10:35 PM, Jim Van Nuland wrote: > Presumably we'd like to continue as members of WAA? I've never heard of WAA. Why do we want to be a member? -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From jvn at sjpc.org Fri Feb 23 00:21:46 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction publicity due out 2 weeks ago! References: <3A95A0B4.77CA@sjpc.org> <20010222155311.L45919@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3A961D9A.6674@sjpc.org> Akkana wrote: > > Jim Van Nuland writes: > > ISSUES: > > (2) That line about pre-registration must be clarified. [snip] > > BTW, in the past, pre-registration didn't > > help except for dealers. > Really? I thought quite a few people preregistered last year. > Did we not enter that into the computer ahead of time? > If not, we should. It was perhaps half a dozen items that Dave had publicized. Took that many minutes during the swap meet. Back when Earl Watts brought 103 objects, pre-reg was absolute nicessity, and Earl was very good about it, as was Joe Sunseri. I looked through the initial data file for several years and didn't see the pattern that would indicate pre-registration. Too often someone would come in with a dozen or more items and vaguely mumble about not pre-regging. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From akkana at shallowsky.com Fri Feb 23 12:29:30 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction publicity due out 2 weeks ago! In-Reply-To: ; from bill@nineplanets.org on Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 04:16:07PM -0800 References: <20010222155311.L45919@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <20010223122930.A4223@shallowsky.com> > on 2/22/01 3:53 PM, Akkana wrote: > > I'll commit to implementing [a preregistration page] RSN I have "beta 1" available for testing, at: http://www.shallowsky.com/auction/register.cgi It's pretty simple and straightforward. Try it and let me know what you think. Once it's ready, I'll get together with Bill and get this hooked up to his auction page on the real SJAA site. Do we need more information than just name, description, starting bid, and whether it's a donation? Do we need a way to let people view the things they've already registered, or delete something from the list? Should we worry about password protection (e.g. someone coming in and claiming to be someone else and registering items in that person's name)? ...Akkana From bill at nineplanets.org Fri Feb 23 14:17:31 2001 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction publicity due out 2 weeks ago! In-Reply-To: <20010223122930.A4223@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: on 2/23/01 12:29 PM, Akkana wrote: >> on 2/22/01 3:53 PM, Akkana wrote: >>> I'll commit to implementing [a preregistration page] RSN > > I have "beta 1" available for testing, at: > http://www.shallowsky.com/auction/register.cgi > > It's pretty simple and straightforward. > Try it and let me know what you think. Should we make a page that includes all the items registered so that everyone can see what's coming? Or perhaps we should do that only if there are enough interesting items. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org Emerald Hills, CA USA http://nineplanets.org/ From akkana at shallowsky.com Fri Feb 23 14:21:03 2001 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction publicity due out 2 weeks ago! In-Reply-To: ; from bill@nineplanets.org on Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:17:31PM -0800 References: <20010223122930.A4223@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <20010223142103.C4223@shallowsky.com> Bill Arnett writes: > on 2/23/01 12:29 PM, Akkana wrote: > > I have "beta 1" available for testing, at: > > http://www.shallowsky.com/auction/register.cgi > > Should we make a page that includes all the items registered so that > everyone can see what's coming? Or perhaps we should do that only if there > are enough interesting items. Yes, good idea. I'll do that. ...Akkana From jvn at sjpc.org Fri Feb 23 13:16:15 2001 From: jvn at sjpc.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Auction publicity due out 2 weeks ago! References: <20010222155311.L45919@shallowsky.com> <20010223122930.A4223@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3A96D31F.202F@sjpc.org> Akkana wrote: > Do we need more information than just name, description, > starting bid, and whether it's a donation? That's what the old auction program requires. A really fancy pre-registration would assign a number to each seller and each item, then generate records in the format used by the auction program. BTW, the bidder/seller numbers should start at 10. > Do we need a way to let people view the things they've > already registered, That would be very useful! Dave drummed up considerable interest a year or two or three ago, and his only tool was a series of messages on the SJAA members' list. I would have the seller give a short, less-than-60 character description, and then an extended free-form that would be for the benefit of anyone looking around on the electronic table. Only the first would be funneled into the auction program. It might not be overkill to provide for a query to be routed to the owner, even if the owner's address wasn't visible on the page. > or delete something from the list? Less likely. If it happens, an e-mail to the manager would be sufficient and you could delete it manually. If I had pre-sold something, I would post a "new" item whose description was "I sold that 32 inch scope", and then e-mail asking that both be deleted. Of course, this is all the raving of a crazed programmer, and you know what kind of people *those* are. > Should we worry about password protection (e.g. someone I'm inclined to think it isn't needed. -- Jim Van Nuland, Secretary, San Jose Astronomical Association. Jim Van Nuland, Postmaster, sjpc.org JVN's home page From jbartolini at juno.com Fri Feb 23 15:23:47 2001 From: jbartolini at juno.com (Jim Bartolini) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] [Fwd: From WAA Secretary - Membership reminder.] Message-ID: <20010223.152348.-3901959.0.jbartolini@juno.com> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:35:23 -0800 Jim Van Nuland writes: > Presumably we'd like to continue as members of WAA? Yes..... Jim ................. 8-) ================================================================= Jim Bartolini ================================================================= From north at znet.com Fri Feb 9 11:22:14 2001 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:11 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] agenda References: Message-ID: <3A844359.66BC8132@znet.com> Billa: >>Update on the green laser.<< My impression is we're mostly impressed by it. Mike? Dave