From koopm at koopm.best.vwh.net Fri Oct 3 19:02:38 2003 From: koopm at koopm.best.vwh.net (Michael Koop) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Calstar Expenses Message-ID: Here is the summary sheet for the expenses/income for Calstar 2003 as collected or expended by me: I bought paper for the programs and stuff from Orion for the Raffle (Eye Patch, OptiCloth, Ronci Tester, and The Observer's Sky Atlas) For the catered dinner, to simplify the money changing, we made the dinner cost $15 instead of $14. We also only charged $10 for the Vegi dinners. The $200 for the catering travel expenses are not included with this total. My Calstar Expenses: Program Paper $10.38 Raffle $32.24 total Expenses $42.62 Calstar Income Collected by Me Friday Dinner $53.00 (58 Meat Dinners, 4 Vegi, 8 No shows) Saturday Dinner $60.00 (61 Meat Dinners, 3 Vegi, 9 No Shows) Swap $7.00 total Income $120.00 Cash To Gary: $77.38 Mark, I think this is everything. Let me know if I missed something. Mike From wb6yru at aenet.net Sat Oct 4 01:36:33 2003 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Calstar Expenses References: Message-ID: <3F7E8691.23F5@aenet.net> Michael Koop wrote: > > Here is the summary sheet for the expenses/income for Calstar 2003 > as collected or expended by me: > > I bought paper for the programs and stuff from Orion for the Raffle > (Eye Patch, OptiCloth, Ronci Tester, and The Observer's Sky Atlas) > > For the catered dinner, to simplify the money changing, we made the dinner > cost $15 instead of $14. We also only charged $10 for the Vegi dinners. > The $200 for the catering travel expenses are not included with this > total. I sent them two checks back in April, the $200 travel fee and the $300 refundable deposit (if enough dinners are purchased). > My Calstar Expenses: > Program Paper $10.38 > Raffle $32.24 > total Expenses $42.62 > > Calstar Income Collected by Me > Friday Dinner $53.00 (58 Meat Dinners, 4 Vegi, 8 No shows) > Saturday Dinner $60.00 (61 Meat Dinners, 3 Vegi, 9 No Shows) > Swap $7.00 > total Income $120.00 > > Cash To Gary: $77.38 You say we charged $15 per meat dinner and $10 per veggie dinner. There were 119 meat dinners and 7 veggie dinners served. How did we take in only $113? Gary From jvn at svpal.org Sun Oct 5 22:51:12 2003 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Minutes for September Board meeting Message-ID: <3F8102D0.533@svpal.org> Here is the first draft of the Minutes from the September 13 meeting of the Board of Directors. There are a couple places where I wasn't sure who or what. -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site ========================================================= SJAA Board Meeting Minutes September 13, 2003, Houge Park. Presiding: Secretary Jim Van Nuland. Start 7 pm. Present: Jim Van Nuland, Dana Crom, Dave Smith. Bill O'Shaughnessy, Gary Mitchell, Craig & Elena Scull, Steve Nelson. Excused: Mike Koop, Bob Havner. Guest: Rob Hawley, SJAA member Minutes from August, distributed by Dave Smith. Approved after noting a few typos. FPOA & Fremont Peak SP [JVN: FPOA's contract is being converted from Co-operative Association to Concessionaire. There are major liability issues that are not being settled.] Rob Hawley described the situation. SN objected, saying that FPOA is their problem, not SJAA's. RH says other observatories that are located in state parks are also under pressure. There is a new gate a way back from the developed area. People speculate as to whether it's for crowd control or to enable the park to be shut down. SJAA does not intend to compete with the existing FPOA for the contract to run the observatory. Much speculation as to how Ranger Row is to be used, access rules, advance notice needed, etc. (RH?) suggests a "Gate-Keeper" arrangement as is/was done for TAC and the Dinosaur Point area. JVN points out that SJAA has not been able to agreed to have someone present for each deep-sky weekend, so he has doubts that gate-keepers would be impractical. Speculation as to whether FPOA is in money trouble. General agreement around the table that SJAA should not at this time throw money at FPOA. Motion passed to table discussion, but chatter continued. Specifically, the Ferguson Observatory is also being converted; SJAA received a copy of the request for proposals. It is worded very specifically so that the present group is the only practical applicant. As was the FPOA request. Treasurer's Report: Gary Mitchell Checking current $12071.41 Savings 6/16/03 398.24 Money Market 8/06/03 2840.29 The RASC handbooks and calendars are on order. Sky & Telescope price increased to $33 from $30. Their letter stated that it was to begin in 2004, but now they are saying it starts immediately. Gary is fighting with them, saying that they should honor their letter for the several subscriptions that he has sent them. SN moves that SJAA absorb the cost for the memberships that come in prior to publishing the new rate in the Ephemeris. Passed by acclimation. Gary says he'll continue fighting for a while. Request for $15 to order an educational CD from ________, Maine. HELP ME HERE! Membership Report: slight increase from last month. Loaner Scope Program: Mike not present. Someone commented that there have been numerous transfers at recent meetings. Observational astronomy class: no report. ATM Class: no report General meeting program: no report Houge Park Star Parties: no report Calendar: JVN Approval of the 2004 calendar is waiting on Mike Koop. JVN asks everyone present to study the proposed calendar. Telescope Clinic: (see August Minutes). SN is interested in helping, and will talk to Mike Koop. New Business EVC proposal submitted by Steve: "The Board expresses its intent to negotiate a no-cost and non-exclusive contract for use of the new Evergreen College Observatory for the purpose of a program of docent training. This program has as its objective a trained cadre of high school, college, and SJAA members to assist EVC and SJAA star parties. The Curriculum for this program will be developed per California state science curriculum standards (earth sciences0 by teachers Steven Nelson and Bill O'Shaughnessy." The motion was seconded by [BO'S?]. Some brief discussion. SJAA would not run the EVC Observatory. The motion was tabled at SN's request. Meeting adjourned at 7:55. Minutes submitted by JVN, Oct.5, 2003. ========================================================= From mgwagner at resource-intl.com Mon Oct 6 09:55:09 2003 From: mgwagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] FPOA info (was Minutes for September Board meeting) In-Reply-To: <3F8102D0.533@svpal.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031006093839.00b9d288@mail201.pair.com> At 10/5/2003, you wrote: > Speculation as to whether FPOA is in money trouble. Since I did not attend the last board meeting, I'll pass this along. In a recent private e-mail discussion with FPOA board member Doug Brown, he assured me that the FPOA was not in financial crisis. In my discussion by phone with another FPOA board member, the same representation was made, except with the additional remark that their funds are not liquid. >General agreement around the table that SJAA should not at this time throw >money at FPOA. For the board's information, I suggested to Brown that if the possibility existed that the FPOA would cease to exists, a possibility based on a remark to me by another FPOA board member, that it might be smart for the FPOA to transfer its funds to another entity. This is just to cover the possibility that legally, the funds might be frozen, in the event the FPOA ceased to exist. Remote? Yes. Possible? Maybe. I'd try to cover my bases if I were them. I also suggested that the $5K donated by the SJAA to the FPOA for storm damage repairs to the observatory, be returned. Through unsubstantiated hearesay, it appeared the FPOA was in an awkward "monetary excess" which could create some potential legal situation for them. If they did not need the donation, I suggested it be returned (and especially if it were possible it be frozen, in the case of the FPOA losing its legal status). The reply from Brown was that the SJAA had made no such request. My reply was that I felt the FPOA board should take the initiative and make the offer to the SJAA. I made all these remarks to Brown as an individual, and not in any way representing that they are the position of the SJAA or its board. Mark From north at znet.com Mon Oct 6 10:53:19 2003 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] FPOA info (was Minutes for September Board meeting) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031006093839.00b9d288@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: Mark Wagner wrote: > I also suggested that the $5K donated by the SJAA to the FPOA for > storm damage repairs to the observatory, be returned. Through > unsubstantiated hearesay, it appeared the FPOA was in an awkward > "monetary excess" which could create some potential legal situation > for them. Though I don't know the amount, I do know FPOA got more donated for roof repairs than was required in the end, even including using the wrong nails the first time around. Or something like that. I do also know they have been uncertain what to do about the excess since it became apparent that would be the case. I do not know the legal implications of this so I won't comment, but there is definitely substance to the point that they did get more money than needed. For some reason, I don't think the number was as impressive as $5,000 but I have to confess my memory is not complete on the issue. It was first raised when I was presiding, and I recall at the time that the status of the roof was uncertain and SJAA was in no financial need, so my suggestion at the time was that they retain the excess until it was obvious there was no longer need and deal with the issue at that time. Subsequent that casual conversation with Ron Damann, I did not look into the issue again. I also recall that it was my understanding that they were under no obligation to return the funds even if they turned out to be more than needed, though I got the feeling that if we pressed, they would have done so. I do recall at the time the funds were committed that I was curious about what might happen in such an event, and do not recall any resolution. I was not at that time president but rather vice president, and do not recall if there was any contract or written guidance attendant the funds. Jim? Do we have anything? At this point, I have no idea (personally) if FPOA is in need of funds, or might be smarter to be without them, so I can't comment on that subject. I do personally think that the board is correct and that any further investment at this time would be something of a mistake. Money is not the issue there at this time, but rather reasonable agreements need to be wired down before any long-term planning should be considered. On the other hand, I'm not close enough to the issues to make a sound recommendation as to whether there should be any official board action on this matter, but I would point out that it may be the responsibility of the board to make a reasonable enquiry into the matter, officially, because you are (alas) legally responsible to represent the club's financial issues. But even on that question I'm unclear, as the funds were committed some time back and probably without encumbrance. I doubt I'm helping much here, but if anyone has questions about this issue that I might be able to help with, pass it forward. Of course as to the mechanics of the original donation (and particularly the interested parties involved) who might remember something they are Ed Erbeck, Jack Zeiders and perhaps Gene Cisneros would have some input. Dave North From jvn at svpal.org Mon Oct 6 16:55:38 2003 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] FPOA info (was Minutes for September Board meeting) References: Message-ID: <3F8200FA.1948@svpal.org> Dave North wrote: > I also recall that it was my understanding that they were under no > obligation to return the funds even if they turned out to be more than > needed, though I got the feeling that if we pressed, they would have > done so. This was at the March 14, 1998 meeting. There were no restrictions placed on the $5000. The estimate for the roof was $3000; walls and shutters needed extensive work, additional $2000. The minutes make no mention of any discussion regarding leftover money. There was no contract. -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site From north at znet.com Mon Oct 6 19:16:17 2003 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] FPOA info (was Minutes for September Board meeting) In-Reply-To: <3F8200FA.1948@svpal.org> Message-ID: <3C0ACAB3-F86C-11D7-B607-000393836B64@znet.com> jvn: > This was at the March 14, 1998 meeting. There were no restrictions > placed on the $5000. The estimate for the roof was $3000; walls and > shutters needed extensive work, additional $2000. The minutes make no > mention of any discussion regarding leftover money. There was no > contract. Pretty much the way I remember it. Thanks for looking that up! Dave From wsnelson at concentric.net Mon Oct 6 19:23:46 2003 From: wsnelson at concentric.net (wendy&steve) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] FPOA info (was Minutes for September Board meeting) Message-ID: <01c38c7a$091e8640$LocalHost@crc3.concentric.net> Dissolution of a California non-profit corporate entity. There is no legal problem with funds the FPOA may control. If a non-profit board votes to dissolve ( and members may have to vote - depends on articles of incorporation) - then they are required to disburse their funds to other non-profits that they deem will carry on the "public benefit" purpose of their articles of incorporation. Again Mark (and others), please leave the legal responsibility of other corporations in the hands of the boards of those other non-profits. What we gave as a gift is gone. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Wagner To: sjaaboard@sjaa.net Date: Monday, October 06, 2003 10:10 AM Subject: [SJAABoard] FPOA info (was Minutes for September Board meeting) >.. This is just to cover the >possibility that legally, the funds might be frozen, in the event the FPOA >ceased to exist. Remote? Yes. Possible? Maybe. I'd try to cover my >bases if I were them. > >. From wsnelson at concentric.net Mon Oct 6 19:13:15 2003 From: wsnelson at concentric.net (wendy&steve) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Minutes for September Board meeting Message-ID: <01c38c78$930442c0$LocalHost@crc3.concentric.net> for $30 for two CDs from Astronomical Association of Northern New England. One Ok ed ($15) from Star Party fund by acclamation. (?) EVCC Motion to table was not seconded - motion was passed unanimously. [ Jim I was surprised but I believe it was voted and accepted} -----Original Message----- From: Jim Van Nuland To: SJAA Board Date: Sunday, October 05, 2003 11:23 PM Subject: [SJAABoard] Minutes for September Board meeting . > SN moves that SJAA absorb the cost for the memberships that >come in prior to publishing the new rate in the Ephemeris. Passed >by acclimation. Gary says he'll continue fighting for a while. > > Request for $15 to order an educational CD from ________, >Maine. HELP ME HERE! > >Membership Report: slight increase from last month. > >Loaner Scope Program: Mike not present. Someone commented that >there have been numerous transfers at recent meetings. > >Observational astronomy class: no report. > >ATM Class: no report > >General meeting program: no report > >Houge Park Star Parties: no report > >Calendar: JVN > Approval of the 2004 calendar is waiting on Mike Koop. JVN >asks everyone present to study the proposed calendar. > >Telescope Clinic: > (see August Minutes). SN is interested in helping, and will >talk to Mike Koop. > > >New Business > > >EVC proposal submitted by Steve: > > "The Board expresses its intent to negotiate a no-cost and >non-exclusive contract for use of the new Evergreen College >Observatory for the purpose of a program of docent training. This >program has as its objective a trained cadre of high school, >college, and SJAA members to assist EVC and SJAA star parties. The >Curriculum for this program will be developed per California state >science curriculum standards (earth sciences by teachers Steven >Nelson and Bill O'Shaughnessy." > > The motion was seconded by [BO'S?]. > > Some brief discussion. SJAA would not run the EVC Observatory. >The motion was tabled at SN's request. > >Meeting adjourned at 7:55. > > >Minutes submitted by JVN, Oct.5, 2003. > >========================================================= > >_______________________________________________ >SJAABoard mailing list >SJAABoard@sjaa.net >http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Oct 7 02:26:52 2003 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] FPOA info (was Minutes for September Board meeting) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20031006093839.00b9d288@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: <3F8286DC.1570@aenet.net> Mark Wagner wrote: > For the board's information, I suggested to Brown that if the possibility > existed that the FPOA would cease to exists, a possibility based on a > remark to me by another FPOA board member, that it might be smart for the > FPOA to transfer its funds to another entity. This is just to cover the > possibility that legally, the funds might be frozen, in the event the FPOA > ceased to exist. Remote? Yes. Possible? Maybe. I'd try to cover my > bases if I were them. Most non-profits have built into their bylaws and/or articles of incorporation that upon liquidation, the organization's assets could only go to another similar non-profit organization. If the FPOA were folding and picked SJAA to get their assets (the most likely case, IMO), then we most probably would get control over the observatory. Whatever problems there were between the FPOA and the State would then be our problem. I'm not saying we should refuse, just that we may need to be prepared. > I also suggested that the $5K donated by the SJAA to the FPOA for storm > damage repairs to the observatory, be returned. If they're going to give anything back, it should be only the excess. And I'd rather they initiate any give-back, not us. However, if someone not representing SJAA planted the idea that it would be a nice jesture to return the unused portion, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Gary From mgwagner at resource-intl.com Tue Oct 7 07:12:07 2003 From: mgwagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] FPOA info (was Minutes for September Board meeting) In-Reply-To: <3F8286DC.1570@aenet.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20031006093839.00b9d288@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031007070605.00b9d288@mail201.pair.com> At 10/7/2003, you wrote: >Most non-profits have built into their bylaws and/or articles >of incorporation that upon liquidation, the organization's >assets could only go to another similar non-profit organization. Hi Gary, My concern was actually regarding the FPOA losing its non-profit status, and what the ramifications might be. The suggestion that there might be a problem was actually related to me by an FPOA board member. And, though this is not directed toward you, I don't think there is anything wrong with interested parties being concerned about what the boards of local astronomical organizations do. Even expressing their concerns and opinions in that regard. Boards can make mistakes. Mark Wagner From north at znet.com Tue Oct 7 09:14:26 2003 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] FPOA info (was Minutes for September Board meeting) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031007070605.00b9d288@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: <52740877-F8E1-11D7-B7A7-000393836B64@znet.com> Mark Wagner wrote: > I don't think there is anything wrong with interested parties being > concerned about what the boards of local astronomical organizations > do. In this particular case the view is supported by the FPOA. In their last newsletter, they solicit ideas and opinions as regards their current difficulties -- both from FPOA members and non-members alike. Personally, I'd encourage everybody to participate in whatever way they feel useful. At the same time, I prefer to see the SJAA Board show a bit more reserve than might be appropriate from private individuals. It's true FPOA is in a world of poo, but it's not clear how much official help they need to make sure it gets stirred. The state seems to have a much bigger cuisinart than us anyway. I will point out a couple of things, though. First, there are certainly SJAA members who are very concerned about this issue, though we are not the group primarily affected. In light of that, if there actually were something useful SJAA could do I suspect it would be appreciated. And I have no better idea of how to inspect the ideas than to discuss them. There are fine lines of opinion. As an example, though I personally suspect FPOA's best move at this time would be to limit their activities to the observatory alone, I'm also pointedly aware of John Gleason's sense of urgency and different view, that attempting to keep influence in the rest of that area is very important for now and the future. We're both just guessing, but I respect John's opinion very much. My point is: there's lots of room here for disagreement with each other, with the decisions the state makes, with the decisions FPOA makes. Honest and reasonable disagreement. This is not an easy situation. But let's keep our eye on the ball: more than anything else, we're going to need to work together as best we can. We may not all get what we want, but if we don't hang together... d From bill at nineplanets.org Tue Oct 7 14:44:18 2003 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] FPOA info (was Minutes for September Board meeting) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031007070605.00b9d288@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: <673FE980-F90F-11D7-A870-000A959822E4@nineplanets.org> On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 07:12 AM, Mark Wagner wrote: > ...I don't think there is anything wrong with interested parties being > concerned about what the boards of local astronomical organizations > do. Even expressing their concerns and opinions in that regard. Right! When I was on the board I always made a point of welcoming comments from other interested parties. > Boards can make mistakes. More importantly, they need input. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org http://nineplanets.org/ Emerald Hills CA USA 37 27 N 122 15 W From wb6yru at aenet.net Wed Oct 8 00:55:16 2003 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] FPOA info (was Minutes for September Board meeting) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20031006093839.00b9d288@mail201.pair.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20031007070605.00b9d288@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: <3F83C2E4.6D3F@aenet.net> Mark Wagner wrote: > > At 10/7/2003, you wrote: > > >Most non-profits have built into their bylaws and/or articles > >of incorporation that upon liquidation, the organization's > >assets could only go to another similar non-profit organization. > > Hi Gary, > > My concern was actually regarding the FPOA losing its non-profit status, > and what the ramifications might be. Well, you used the words "cease to exist." There are different kinds of non-profit organizations. The ones that can accept tax-deductable donations are 501(c)3 public benefit non-profits (e.g. SJAA). There are more restrictions on those than ordinary non-profits. > The suggestion that there might be a > problem was actually related to me by an FPOA board member. What exactly is the nature of this possibility of FPOA either ceasing to exist or losing their non-profit status? > And, though this is not directed toward you, I don't think there is > anything wrong with interested parties being concerned about what the > boards of local astronomical organizations do. Even expressing their > concerns and opinions in that regard. Boards can make mistakes. What prompted that? I for one never meant to suggest otherwise. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Wed Oct 8 00:58:55 2003 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] FPOA info (was Minutes for September Board meeting) References: <52740877-F8E1-11D7-B7A7-000393836B64@znet.com> Message-ID: <3F83C3BF.26AA@aenet.net> Dave North wrote: > > In their > last newsletter, they solicit ideas and opinions as regards their > current difficulties -- both from FPOA members and non-members alike. > It's true FPOA is in a world of poo, but it's not clear how much > official help they need to make sure it gets stirred. Some us don't get the FPOA newsletter. What's going on? Gary From north at znet.com Wed Oct 8 09:07:23 2003 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] FPOA info In-Reply-To: <3F83C3BF.26AA@aenet.net> Message-ID: <80EEFB13-F9A9-11D7-914A-000393836B64@znet.com> Gary Mitchell wrote: > Some us don't get the FPOA newsletter. What's going on? Nothing you haven't already heard about, but there is a note specifically requesting input and opinions. The text of Doug Brown's article is available at: http://fpoa.net/fpoa-contract-brown.html Here's the comment about input: "Before deciding on a course of action, the Board needs comments from the Fremont Peak astronomical community ? both FPOA members and non- members alike. If you have strong feeling about the right course of action for FPOA, please let us know. If you know a non-member that would be affected, ask them for input, and pass it on." It's not my impression, by the way, that FPOA is threatened with nonexistence any time soon, though they certainly face major difficulties. But situations like this do get people considering the extremes, partly because the park service is not exactly forthcoming with explanations (lots of this appears to come from "higher up" and leaves little room for the actual negotiating parties, which has been fairly typical of recent administrations) and partly just because ... well, nobody really does know how this will play out. d From mgwagner at resource-intl.com Wed Oct 8 09:19:20 2003 From: mgwagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] FPOA info (was Minutes for September Board meeting) In-Reply-To: <3F83C2E4.6D3F@aenet.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20031006093839.00b9d288@mail201.pair.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20031007070605.00b9d288@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031008091513.00bac788@mail201.pair.com> At 10/8/2003, Gary Mitchell wrote: >What exactly is the nature of this possibility of FPOA >either ceasing to exist or losing their non-profit status? I have a bit on my plate right now. I'd be happy to discuss this in detail in a week or so. > > And, though this is not directed toward you, I don't think there is > > anything wrong with interested parties being concerned about what the > > boards of local astronomical organizations do. Even expressing their > > concerns and opinions in that regard. Boards can make mistakes. > >What prompted that? I for one never meant to suggest otherwise. I specifically stated that it was not directed at you, Gary. There was a prior remark about who's business the FPOA is, or is not, essentially saying "butt out" if I read it correctly. Mark Wagner Current list of projects: http://www.astronomy-mall.com/projects.html updated 10/3/03 From d at vidnorth.com Thu Oct 9 13:27:15 2003 From: d at vidnorth.com (David North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Membership numbers Message-ID: Down 10 to 347. That's the 'june swoon' being finalized. June is our biggest month for some reason (probably an old Skytel thang) and I'm finally giving up on the June no-shows. All things considered that isn't bad, but the potential loss from August is still notable. d From jvn at svpal.org Thu Oct 9 18:42:06 2003 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Minutes, Sep.13 Board Meeting Message-ID: <3F860E6E.2BDA@svpal.org> Here are revised Minutes from the Sep.13 board meeting. The two changes are (1) specify the source of the educational CD being requested; (2) specify that Steve & Bill's proposal was passed (not tabled). Clear Skies (and notes!) -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site ============================================== SJAA Board Meeting Minutes September 13, 2003, Houge Park. Presiding: Secretary Jim Van Nuland. Start 7 pm. Present: Jim Van Nuland, Dana Crom, Dave Smith. Bill O'Shaughnessy, Gary Mitchell, Craig & Elena Scull, Steve Nelson. Excused: Mike Koop, Bob Havner. Guest: Rob Hawley, SJAA member Minutes from August, distributed by Dave Smith. Approved after noting a few typos. FPOA & Fremont Peak SP [JVN: FPOA's contract is being converted from Co-operative Association to Concessionaire. There are major liability issues that are not being settled.] Rob Hawley described the situation. SN objected, saying that FPOA is their problem, not SJAA's. RH says other observatories that are located in state parks are also under pressure. There is a new gate a way back from the developed area. People speculate as to whether it's for crowd control or to enable the park to be shut down. SJAA does not intend to compete with the existing FPOA for the contract to run the observatory. Much speculation as to how Ranger Row is to be used, access rules, advance notice needed, etc. (RH?) suggests a "Gate-Keeper" arrangement as is/was done for TAC and the Dinosaur Point area. JVN points out that SJAA has not been able to agreed to have someone present for each deep-sky weekend, so he has doubts that gate-keepers would be impractical. Speculation as to whether FPOA is in money trouble. General agreement around the table that SJAA should not at this time throw money at FPOA. Motion passed to table discussion, but chatter continued. Specifically, the Ferguson Observatory is also being converted; SJAA received a copy of the request for proposals. It is worded very specifically so that the present group is the only practical applicant. As was the FPOA request. Treasurer's Report: Gary Mitchell Checking current $12071.41 Savings 6/16/03 398.24 Money Market 8/06/03 2840.29 The RASC handbooks and calendars are on order. Sky & Telescope price increased to $33 from $30. Their letter stated that it was to begin in 2004, but now they are saying it starts immediately. Gary is fighting with them, saying that they should honor their letter for the several subscriptions that he has sent them. SN moves that SJAA absorb the cost for the memberships that come in prior to publishing the new rate in the Ephemeris. Passed by acclimation. Gary says he'll continue fighting for a while. Request for $30 to order two educational CDs from the Astronomical Association of Northern New England. It was agreed to start with one title, so $15 was approved. Membership Report: slight increase from last month. Loaner Scope Program: Mike not present. Someone commented that there have been numerous transfers at recent meetings. Observational astronomy class: no report. ATM Class: no report General meeting program: no report Houge Park Star Parties: no report Calendar: JVN Approval of the 2004 calendar is waiting on Mike Koop. JVN asks everyone present to study the proposed calendar. Telescope Clinic: (see August Minutes). SN is interested in helping, and will talk to Mike Koop. New Business EVC proposal submitted by Steve: "The Board expresses its intent to negotiate a no-cost and non-exclusive contract for use of the new Evergreen College Observatory for the purpose of a program of docent training. This program has as its objective a trained cadre of high school, college, and SJAA members to assist EVC and SJAA star parties. The Curriculum for this program will be developed per California state science curriculum standards (earth sciences) by teachers Steven Nelson and Bill O'Shaughnessy." The motion was not formally seconded. Since Bill's name is in there, JVN took that as an implicit second. SN had intended that the motion would be tabled (as time was short), but discussion began in the form of a few questions. It was stated that SJAA would not run the EVC Observatory. The motion is essentially a request to start discussions with Jeffery Kirkbride. Passed by acclimation. Meeting adjourned at 7:55. Minutes submitted by JVN, Oct.5, 2003. ============================================== From dana.crom at zoran.com Fri Oct 10 13:34:56 2003 From: dana.crom at zoran.com (Dana Crom) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Last minute family visit - may not be able to make the Board Meet ing Message-ID: <56BEF0DBC8B9D611BFDB00508B5E2634FED8CA@tlexmail.teralogic-inc.com> Sorry about the last-minute change of plans. I'm having mail issues from home (need to reconfigure sendmail) so couldn't post last night. It looks like my cousin and his family will be in town tomorrow and we'll be taking them out to dinner - this runs right over the board meeting time, and I'm not certain if I'll be able to make the regular meeting. My apologies - I really wanted to be there, since I think we have a lot to talk about - the wrap-up on CalStar, FPOA woes, getting ready for next month's swap meet . . . I'll try to follow along online, and participate there. And I'll really, truly, honestly try to be there next month. Dana Crom Dana Crom Staff SW Engineer ZORAN Corporation 1390 Kifer Road Sunnyvale, CA 94086 Phone: (408) 523-4213 Email: Dana.Crom@Zoran.com Web: http://www.zoran.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20031010/2b7358ce/attachment.html From wsnelson at concentric.net Sat Oct 11 17:00:31 2003 From: wsnelson at concentric.net (wendy&steve) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Oct Board Meeting Agenda Message-ID: <01c39053$ef09fb80$1160ee42@crc3.concentric.net> > >FPOA & Fremont Peak SP > [JVN: FPOA's contract is being converted from Co-operative >Association to Concessionaire. There are major liability issues >that are not being settled.] > > I would really like the chairman of tonight's meeting to keep us on track with SJAA business as the first items of business (i.e. our normal order of business). Although I know the FPOA problems (and State Parks) are of interest to many individuals, I'm sure this has been discussed in many dozens of emails on the TAC list. Unless there is a specific action item to be voted on for SJAA action, I don't want to waste my personal time on a long ranging philosophy discussion, or worse an unstructured "what if" discussion. If someone has a well directed petition or letter, I would be happy to sign it (and even circulate a copy). Please no rambling thoughts. If the thoughts are written down - they are plenty good enough for us to discuss and vote on. If they are not yet at a state to be discussed and voted on - I don't think they need to be brought to an "official corporation" forum. We have unfinished business discussions on a possible SJAA observatory, under our control. I would like to continue our work on this item. {I got off the TAC list because of all the 'my opinion is' traffic that this type of problem always generated} Steve Nelson, SJAA Board - (TAC and FPOA nothing From mojo at whiteoaks.com Mon Oct 13 19:39:32 2003 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] November Ephemeris available for quick proofread Message-ID: I'm ready to send the Ephemeris to the printer late tonight or early tomorrow morning, so here's your chance for a quick proofread. Please let me know of any problems that must be fixed before going to press. http://ephemeris.sjaa.net/0311/EphNov03.pdf Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From jvn at svpal.org Mon Oct 13 22:36:09 2003 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] November Ephemeris available for quick proofread References: Message-ID: <3F8B8B49.5BA4@svpal.org> Morris Jones wrote: > > I'm ready to send the Ephemeris to the printer late tonight or early > tomorrow morning, > http://ephemeris.sjaa.net/0311/EphNov03.pdf I checked the calendar (this time). Looks good. When will you and Jane turn things over to the new editor, and plug their names into the inside back page? Perhaps that's the first thing the new editors do. Clear Skies! -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site From mojo at whiteoaks.com Tue Oct 14 09:57:37 2003 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] November Ephemeris available for quick proofread In-Reply-To: <3F8B8B49.5BA4@svpal.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, Jim Van Nuland wrote: > I checked the calendar (this time). Looks good. When will you and > Jane turn things over to the new editor, and plug their names into the > inside back page? Perhaps that's the first thing the new editors do. We thought it'd be best to transition for the January issue. Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Oct 14 23:12:15 2003 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] November Ephemeris available for quick proofread References: Message-ID: <3F8CE53F.6800@aenet.net> Morris Jones wrote: > > On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, Jim Van Nuland wrote: > > > I checked the calendar (this time). Looks good. When will you and > > Jane turn things over to the new editor, and plug their names into the > > inside back page? Perhaps that's the first thing the new editors do. > > We thought it'd be best to transition for the January issue. This is probably a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway... Is it safe to assume ephemeris@sjaa.net will always go to the current editor, whomever that might be? Gary From mojo at whiteoaks.com Tue Oct 14 23:12:07 2003 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] November Ephemeris available for quick proofread In-Reply-To: <3F8CE53F.6800@aenet.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Oct 2003, Gary Mitchell wrote: > This is probably a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway... > Is it safe to assume ephemeris@sjaa.net will always go to > the current editor, whomever that might be? Yes that is safe to assume. In fact shortly and for a couple months it'll go to all three of us. Jane, Mojo, and Paul. Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From mojo at whiteoaks.com Thu Oct 16 08:54:09 2003 From: mojo at whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Paul Kohlmiller added to ephemeris@sjaa.net Message-ID: I've added Paul Kohlmiller's email addresses to the alias for ephemeris@sjaa.net for the transition period. Jane and I plan to do the December issue, and hand it over to Paul for the new year. Mojo -- Morris Jones <*> San Rafael, CA mojo@whiteoaks.com http://www.whiteoaks.com From RNapo at znet.com Fri Oct 17 15:01:35 2003 From: RNapo at znet.com (Rich N.) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] No Houge tonight (Fri, 17th)?? Message-ID: <000a01c394fa$3bd8baa0$8ea23442@pavilion> Hi Folks, Why no Houge Park star party tonight (Oct. 17th)? It is close to a third quarter moon. And... why a Houge Park star party on Oct. 24th when we have a new moon? Any chance of seeing the proposed calendar for 2004? Thanks, Rich From mgwagner at resource-intl.com Fri Oct 17 15:06:17 2003 From: mgwagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] No Houge tonight (Fri, 17th)?? In-Reply-To: <000a01c394fa$3bd8baa0$8ea23442@pavilion> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031017150519.00b9b128@mail201.pair.com> At 10/17/2003, you wrote: >Why no Houge Park star party tonight (Oct. 17th)? It is close to a third >quarter moon. Dang. I'm all packed up and nowhere to go! :-) From koopm at koopm.best.vwh.net Fri Oct 17 15:11:38 2003 From: koopm at koopm.best.vwh.net (Michael Koop) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] No Houge tonight (Fri, 17th)?? In-Reply-To: <000a01c394fa$3bd8baa0$8ea23442@pavilion> Message-ID: Look where Halloween falls. Mike On Fri, 17 Oct 2003, Rich N. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Why no Houge Park star party tonight (Oct. 17th)? > It is close to a third quarter moon. > > And... why a Houge Park star party on Oct. 24th when we > have a new moon? > > Any chance of seeing the proposed calendar for 2004? > > Thanks, > Rich > > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > From mgwagner at resource-intl.com Fri Oct 17 15:16:46 2003 From: mgwagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] No Houge tonight (Fri, 17th)?? In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c394fa$3bd8baa0$8ea23442@pavilion> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031017151516.00b9b128@mail201.pair.com> At 10/17/2003, you wrote: >Look where Halloween falls. End of October? Personally, I think a Halloween Houge would be a blast. From koopm at koopm.best.vwh.net Fri Oct 17 15:19:04 2003 From: koopm at koopm.best.vwh.net (Michael Koop) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] No Houge tonight (Fri, 17th)?? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031017151516.00b9b128@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: But who would show up? Probably just us and not much of the public. We moved what should have been this week to next week so we would not have too many weeks between star parties when we skipped one. Mike On Fri, 17 Oct 2003, Mark Wagner wrote: > At 10/17/2003, you wrote: > > >Look where Halloween falls. > > End of October? > > Personally, I think a Halloween Houge would be a blast. > > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > From RNapo at znet.com Fri Oct 17 16:28:02 2003 From: RNapo at znet.com (Rich N.) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] No Houge tonight (Fri, 17th)?? Message-ID: <000a01c39506$4fc5a080$b8a23442@pavilion> Hi Mike, I'm with Mark. A Halloween Houge star party would a lot of fun. Again, any chance of looking at the proposed 2004 calendar before you vote on it? Thanks, Rich >But who would show up? >Probably just us and not much of the public. >We moved what should have been this week to next week so we would not have >too many weeks between star parties when we skipped one. > >Mike > >On Fri, 17 Oct 2003, Mark Wagner wrote: > >> At 10/17/2003, you wrote: >> >> >Look where Halloween falls. >> >> End of October? >> >> Personally, I think a Halloween Houge would be a blast. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SJAABoard mailing list >> SJAABoard@sjaa.net >> http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard >> > >_______________________________________________ >SJAABoard mailing list >SJAABoard@sjaa.net >http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard From jvn at svpal.org Fri Oct 17 16:24:41 2003 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] No Houge tonight (Fri, 17th)?? References: <000a01c394fa$3bd8baa0$8ea23442@pavilion> <5.1.0.14.2.20031017151516.00b9b128@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: <3F907A39.30BB@svpal.org> Mark Wagner wrote: > > At 10/17/2003, you wrote: > > >Look where Halloween falls. > > End of October? > > Personally, I think a Halloween Houge would be a blast. It well might. We'd have some local customers, but I drather that we all set up in our neighborhoods and have many more customers. Be sure to tell everyone that we do this every couple weeks at Houge Park. Clear Skies! -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site ` From north at znet.com Fri Oct 17 17:10:45 2003 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] No Houge tonight (Fri, 17th)?? In-Reply-To: <000a01c39506$4fc5a080$b8a23442@pavilion> Message-ID: <8541A00A-00FF-11D8-85E7-000393836B64@znet.com> Mark/Rich: > A Halloween Houge star party would a lot of fun. Probably would be a good idea. Those what don't want to participate can not, and if everybody brought some candy and the Merc knew about it... our neighborhood has been very quiet in recent years, don't know why. Might actually get _more_ people this way with such a respected group sponsoring it. d From mgwagner at resource-intl.com Fri Oct 17 17:13:50 2003 From: mgwagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] No Houge tonight (Fri, 17th)?? In-Reply-To: <8541A00A-00FF-11D8-85E7-000393836B64@znet.com> References: <000a01c39506$4fc5a080$b8a23442@pavilion> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031017171321.00ba3928@mail201.pair.com> At 10/17/2003, you wrote: >Mark/Rich: > >>A Halloween Houge star party would a lot of fun. > >Probably would be a good idea. Those what don't want to participate can >not, and if everybody brought some candy and the Merc knew about it... our >neighborhood has been very quiet in recent years, don't know why. > Might actually get _more_ people this way with such a respected > group sponsoring it. Would you wear your Orca hat again, Dave? We can start planning now for 2008 ;-) From akkana at shallowsky.com Fri Oct 17 17:32:36 2003 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana Peck) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] No Houge tonight (Fri, 17th)?? In-Reply-To: <8541A00A-00FF-11D8-85E7-000393836B64@znet.com> <3F907A39.30BB@svpal.org> References: <000a01c39506$4fc5a080$b8a23442@pavilion> <8541A00A-00FF-11D8-85E7-000393836B64@znet.com> <000a01c394fa$3bd8baa0$8ea23442@pavilion> <5.1.0.14.2.20031017151516.00b9b128@mail201.pair.com> <3F907A39.30BB@svpal.org> Message-ID: <20031018003236.GA6716@shallowsky.com> Jim Van Nuland writes: > It well might. We'd have some local customers, but I drather that we > all set up in our neighborhoods and have many more customers. Be sure > to tell everyone that we do this every couple weeks at Houge Park. You still get trick-or-treaters? We've set up the past two or three years and gotten maybe two or three visitors tops. (We used to get plenty, but they stopped abruptly a few years ago.) I think everybody's going to mall haunted houses or something. And lots of people live in areas where trick-or-treaters don't go (apartments, areas without many kids, houses too near a busy street). Dave North writes: > Probably would be a good idea. Those what don't want to participate can > not, and if everybody brought some candy and the Merc knew about it... I've been tempted in the last few years to grab a small scope and go hand out some sidewalk Halloween eye candy somewhere. Never really thought of a great idea for where to go, though. ...Akkana From jvn at svpal.org Fri Oct 17 21:01:33 2003 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] No Houge tonight (Fri, 17th)?? References: <000a01c39506$4fc5a080$b8a23442@pavilion> <8541A00A-00FF-11D8-85E7-000393836B64@znet.com> <000a01c394fa$3bd8baa0$8ea23442@pavilion> <5.1.0.14.2.20031017151516.00b9b128@mail201.pair.com> <3F907A39.30BB@svpal.org> <20031018003236.GA6716@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3F90BB1D.5B36@svpal.org> Akkana Peck wrote: [snip] > You still get trick-or-treaters? We've set up the past two or three years > and gotten maybe two or three visitors tops. We had about 50 in each of the previous two years. Mostly very young kids with parents, and some older without. The kids love it, but the parents are mixed -- some fascinated, a few afraid the kid will damage the scope. 'Taint happened. > I've been tempted in the last few years to grab a small scope and > go hand out some sidewalk Halloween eye candy somewhere. Never > really thought of a great idea for where to go, though. ? Calico Avenue? :-) Clear Skies! -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site From north at znet.com Fri Oct 17 21:07:00 2003 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] No Houge tonight (Fri, 17th)?? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031017171321.00ba3928@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: <86228A4E-0120-11D8-9FA4-000393836B64@znet.com> Mark: > Would you wear your Orca hat again, Dave? Alas, it took up too much space and had to be retired. But it seems to live on now and then on some web page... d From wsnelson at concentric.net Sat Oct 18 14:14:01 2003 From: wsnelson at concentric.net (wendy&steve) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project Message-ID: <01c395bc$cfa08660$LocalHost@crc3.concentric.net> Dear fellow Board, I would like to renew our discussion on "an observing site owned by SJAA" which we have discussed and tabled at various times over the last several months. For instance, at last meeting it was near the bottom of 'new items' and we did not get to it. After visiting the San Diego Astronomical Association's "Terra del Sol" site, I am starting to think this would be a very good 50th project for the SJAA. Our financial resources are currently very small for this ($4 K). However, like the SDAA experience, I think money would sort itself out once the WILL for such a project was clear. I believe we have a member who has informally pledged to increase our fund to over 3X the current amount. MILD AGREEMENTS? From our discussion before: I believe there was some sort of mild agreement on "1) a site within 1-2 hours driving time, and 2) a site owned by the club (land use issues)." I was unclear on what "dark sky'" requirements or future nearby development issues were considered important (by a soft majority). For purposes of discussion, do we have have a 'soft majority' from board members on items 1) and 2) ? My intent is to listen to the discussion and craft a formal motion if it seems there is a board WILL. I tend toward the 'specific'. I don't think it needs to be a unanimous opinion, but I expect interested SJAA general members to devote some of their own time to this for 'site surveys'. The Board isn't interested in this as a "Board Project" (in my reading). DISCUSSION ITEMS (new) Based on the San Diego experience, I would want to have these requirements in a site: 3) Size 10 acres, 4) Paved road within 1/2 mile. 5) Electric service to edge of property, 6) public dirt road to edge of property. Any agreement or disagreement?? Astronomical QUALITY? This is a very subjective "good, better, best" item. There ARE technical answers to cloud cover, darkness, humidity, transparency, and turbulence questions (see the various "Sky Clock" sites!) My feeling is that a Comparison Site is a good enough way to start. "What observing conditions would be of interest to you in a SJAA controlled site (1 to 2 hrs away)" a) Grant Ranch observatory hill, b) Coe parking lot, c) Coyote Lake, d) Dinosaur Point, e) Lick Observatory [your 'at least as good as' favorite]. If you have ever been on the TAC list you know that this can be discussed ad nauseum (to sickness). [I would be happy with b) Coe or c) Coyote in an SJAA owned site] Steven From mgwagner at resource-intl.com Sat Oct 18 14:20:55 2003 From: mgwagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project In-Reply-To: <01c395bc$cfa08660$LocalHost@crc3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031018141633.00b9b128@mail201.pair.com> At 10/18/2003, wendy&steve wrote: >[I would be happy with b) Coe or c) Coyote in an SJAA owned site] Hi Steve, other board members and others... When it seemed FPOA was at risk, and I'm not heading into a discussion about that, I was contacted by an individual regarding a possible opportunity to work with the Los Gatso Unified School District in building an observatory up highway 17 in the Santa Cruz Mountains, at a school. If there is interest on the part of the SJAA in learning more about this, I will see what more I can find out. I would be enthusiastic about an SJAA observatory in such a nearby location. Mark Wagner From jvn at svpal.org Sat Oct 18 16:26:29 2003 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Calendar for 2004 ready Message-ID: <3F91CC25.695B@svpal.org> Hi, All, Mike has found good dates for the ATM class, and I've carefully checked his Amazing Spreadsheet against my big paper calendar, and with the tabular form that I'd presented earlier. All are consistent. I believer we are ready to announce it! I've begun building the new web page (below) starting with the tabular version, and will add the line-by-line soon. Mike, I've linked to your Amazing Spreadsheet. I presume you expect to leave it there for another 14 months? It's nice to have the format with all the moon phases, rise & set times, holidays. Clear Skies (and schedules!) -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association SJAA 2004 calendar From wb6yru at aenet.net Sun Oct 19 00:58:23 2003 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project References: <01c395bc$cfa08660$LocalHost@crc3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <3F92441F.4D3B@aenet.net> wendy&steve wrote: > MILD AGREEMENTS? > From our discussion before: I believe there was some sort of > mild agreement on "1) a site within 1-2 hours driving time, and > 2) a site owned by the club (land use issues)." I was unclear on > what "dark sky'" requirements or future nearby development > issues were considered important (by a soft majority). > > For purposes of discussion, do we have have a 'soft majority' > from board members on items 1) and 2) ? My impression was that we all pretty much agreed to those in principle. > DISCUSSION ITEMS (new) > Based on the San Diego experience, I would want to have these > requirements in a site: 3) Size 10 acres, 4) Paved road within > 1/2 mile. 5) Electric service to edge of property, 6) public dirt > road to edge of property. Any agreement or disagreement?? Those would all be good; however, any "improvements" will increase the value of the property significantly. Unless we find some extraordinary deal, we should expect prices to start at around $2000 per acre for fairly remote unimproved land, more if roads and power are nearby. Simple dirt roads can be made fairly cheaply, but those tend to need more maintenance. Electricity can be brought in, the going rate (as of few years ago) is about $1000 per pole. Typical mountian recreational land (which is basically what we're after) would come in lots of 5 or 10 acres at least. I've talked about SJAA currently being able to afford one acre, but you would almost never actually see anything that small for sale. It's possible we could talk an existing owner into sub-dividing off a small piece, but not likely. > Astronomical QUALITY? This is a very subjective "good, better, > best" item. There ARE technical answers to cloud cover, darkness, > humidity, transparency, and turbulence questions (see the various > "Sky Clock" sites!) My feeling is that a Comparison Site is a > good enough way to start. "What observing conditions would be of > interest to you in a SJAA controlled site (1 to 2 hrs away)" > a) Grant Ranch observatory hill, > b) Coe parking lot, > c) Coyote Lake, > d) Dinosaur Point, > e) Lick Observatory > [your 'at least as good as' favorite]. I wouldn't be interested in SJAA getting land unless we were reasonably sure it would stay at least as good as B in the foreseeable future. I believe there are many sites like that toward the east and south east from us, probably in the Santa Cruz mountains too. Something in the Santa Cruz mountains probably would have more steady air (laminar flow from the ocean), but also would tend to have more moisture. If it's high enough (e.g. Fremont Peak), S.C. land shouldn't be too bad. I think what we should do is: 1) decide whether this is something we want to pursue at this time. If so, 2) we do a little homework, picking out several possible general sites (looking on maps etc). 3) Investigate what land costs in those areas, cost to build dirt roads there, etc. 4) Actually look at a couple of pieces of land, get a feel for some of the practical apects. 5) Then decide if we should continue. Gary From craigus at rocketmail.com Sun Oct 19 21:34:02 2003 From: craigus at rocketmail.com (Craig Scull) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project In-Reply-To: <01c395bc$cfa08660$LocalHost@crc3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <20031020043402.67084.qmail@web13606.mail.yahoo.com> > MILD AGREEMENTS? > From our discussion before: I believe there was some > sort of > mild agreement on "1) a site within 1-2 hours driving > time, and > 2) a site owned by the club (land use issues)." I might add: "Not prone to fog" > requirements in a site: 3) Size 10 acres, 4) Paved > road within > 1/2 mile. 5) Electric service to edge of property, 6) > public dirt > road to edge of property. Any agreement or > disagreement?? This sounds good. Many people power scopes from batteries or cars so if *electric* is a difficult requirement then we might move it to the "optional" category. The majority of dark sky observing sites have no power. However, if power is a hard and fast requirement then we could provide power via a solar panel and battery combination (in line with the S&T article about solar powered amateur observatories last year). > "What observing conditions > would be of > interest to you in a SJAA controlled site (1 to 2 hrs > away)" > a) Grant Ranch observatory hill, > b) Coe parking lot, > c) Coyote Lake, > d) Dinosaur Point, > e) Lick Observatory Fremont is my recommended reference point because we are considering a location at a similar or further distance. This is a timely discussion for us! Due to a complication of moving (within SJ), we're looking for a place to locate the "monster pier" for our 8" F/13 refractor. We've got 9 months to buy our own land or find a more "collective" option. If the club decides to move in the direction of private land then I would be more than happy to donate some portion ($2k) of the money that we would otherwise have to spend to get our own land. This is our first choice because we're social observers and would enjoy an opportunity to contribute to the greater goal. Clear skies to all, Craig & Elena __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From jvn at svpal.org Mon Oct 20 00:29:09 2003 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Absence, Oct.20-23 Message-ID: <3F938EC5.4EA3@svpal.org> Hi, All, I'll be out of town for four days, visiting family in Sacramento and Sutter Creek, California. I'll be running my e-mail, but will be slower than usual. I have a school star party on Thursday evening, and expect to be there. Clear Skies (and highways!) -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site From robhawley at earthlink.net Mon Oct 20 21:57:00 2003 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project In-Reply-To: <01c395bc$cfa08660$LocalHost@crc3.concentric.net> Message-ID: I would certainly hope for a darker site than "like coyote". I agree with the other writer that Fremont Peak or Dino would be a good example. There are places that dark if you look south of Hollister or Salinas. http://cleardarksky.com/lp/PnchPsslp.html I am trying to go to Chew's Ridge this weekend. There is a commercial campground there where an SJAA member has set up an observatory. It is close to the two-hour limit, but at 3500 feet in the coast mountains it could be a better site than FP. I also do not see that electricity is an absolute requirement. From past discussions my understanding is that the generator would be used for a water pump. There are some alternatives we could consider to solve that problem. I personally have enough telescope battery power for two nights. I bought a small generator for events such as CalStar. A few of these sprinkled in the group would be enough. Rob Hawley From jvn at svpal.org Wed Oct 22 22:55:51 2003 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Updates to 2004 web page Message-ID: <3F976D67.5AD1@svpal.org> Hi, All, I went through the 2004 web page (below) checking sunset and moon rise/set times. Only one was wrong. Along the way I caught an incorrect date, and that all the Thursday ATM classes were given as Saturday. Also, I moved the tabular version to the bottom (thanks, BillA), with a link to it. Useful for some things. Clear Skies! -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association Year 2004 page From north at znet.com Sat Oct 25 21:43:30 2003 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031018141633.00b9b128@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: Mark: > building an observatory up highway 17 in the Santa Cruz Mountains, at > a school. Sounds interesting to me. > If there is interest on the part of the SJAA in learning more about > this, I will see what more I can find out. Depending on the details, I suspect SJAA should be. But that's just a member opinion. d From mgwagner at resource-intl.com Sun Oct 26 14:33:23 2003 From: mgwagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20031018141633.00b9b128@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031026142929.00bca7b8@mail201.pair.com> At 10/25/2003, you wrote: >>building an observatory up highway 17 in the Santa Cruz Mountains, at a >>school. > >Sounds interesting to me. > >>If there is interest on the part of the SJAA in learning more about this, >>I will see what more I can find out. > >Depending on the details, I suspect SJAA should be. But that's just a >member opinion. That's what I think too. But maybe there'll be another group looking for a place to put a telescope. Never know... As far as just a *site* goes... It would have to be as dark or darker than Coe or the Peak, if it is within an hour drive, or it just won't get used much. I would rather see a piece of land down toward Lake San Antonio. I think it would be quite popular on good observing weekends. An observatory (site) need not meet the needs of the majority of club members, there are already close-by sites that fit those needs. Mark From wb6yru at aenet.net Mon Oct 27 00:46:49 2003 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project References: <5.1.0.14.2.20031018141633.00b9b128@mail201.pair.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20031026142929.00bca7b8@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: <3F9CDB79.1BF9@aenet.net> Mark Wagner wrote: > > As far as just a *site* goes... It would have to be as dark or darker than > Coe or the Peak, if it is within an hour drive, or it just won't get used > much. I would rather see a piece of land down toward Lake San Antonio. I > think it would be quite popular on good observing weekends. An observatory > (site) need not meet the needs of the majority of club members, there are > already close-by sites that fit those needs. I think the underlying idea behind having a site of our own is the eventual possibility of an observatory. Maybe not as big as the Fremont Peak scope, but at least something bigger and better than what most of us have. And it would be *our* site. Gary From mgwagner at resource-intl.com Mon Oct 27 11:52:40 2003 From: mgwagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project In-Reply-To: <3F9CDB79.1BF9@aenet.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20031018141633.00b9b128@mail201.pair.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20031026142929.00bca7b8@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031027115014.02c29c98@mail201.pair.com> At 10/27/2003, you wrote: >I think the underlying idea behind having a site of our own is the >eventual possibility of an observatory. Maybe not as big as the Fremont >Peak scope, but at least something bigger and better than what most of us >have. And it would be *our* site. OK. Does this mean the club (board) is not interested in the school site? I've already given my opinion on what would be required for sky darkness for an SJAA only owned site. Mark Wagner Bay Area Astro Business pages: http://www201.pair.com/resource/resource-intl/tacastrobiz.html From craigus at rocketmail.com Mon Oct 27 13:02:18 2003 From: craigus at rocketmail.com (Craig Scull) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031027115014.02c29c98@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: <20031027210219.84993.qmail@web13604.mail.yahoo.com> Can someone maintain the list of "required" and "optional" characteristics our site must have? This should be stored on a website (the club's?) for easy reference. This web page should contain the following: ------------------------------------------------ [Last updated date] [Brief introduction- couple sentences about goal of project, purpose of website] [List of required site characteristics, ok if only contains 1-2 items for now] [List of optional site characteristics, ok if is big long list] [List of debated site characteristics, maybe a quick pro and con on each as a placeholder] [List of candidate sites to explore, and who are assigned to evaluate them, ok to leave TBD for now] [Scenarios-- probably too early for this, but would eventually include "land ownership" model, "shared land" model, "leased land" model, etc] [Contacts, who is playing what part in the process, the board, Rob H, etc. How to get involved, who updates the page, etc] ------------------------------------------------------- [The above could be accomplished in about 2 hours by someone who knows HTML and has the content already at hand. I would be willing to supply first draft content to kick this off if needed] This would help us structure and coordinate the process, document what we're learning, and most importantly show progress to *keep us all motivated*. I see two people required to make this work: 1) The "leader" who collects and filters what's coming out of this thread -- Rob Hawley, this might be you already? 2) The person who maintain the website gets their updates from Rob once a week and does not necessarily have to monitor this thread -- [insert name here] my .02 Craig --- Mark Wagner wrote: > At 10/27/2003, you wrote: > > >I think the underlying idea behind having a site of > our own is the > >eventual possibility of an observatory. Maybe not as > big as the Fremont > >Peak scope, but at least something bigger and better > than what most of us > >have. And it would be *our* site. > > OK. Does this mean the club (board) is not interested > in the school site? > > I've already given my opinion on what would be required > for sky darkness > for an SJAA only owned site. > > > Mark Wagner > Bay Area Astro Business pages: > http://www201.pair.com/resource/resource-intl/tacastrobiz.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From wsnelson at concentric.net Mon Oct 27 22:28:45 2003 From: wsnelson at concentric.net (wendy&steve) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project Message-ID: <01c39d1c$d090c6e0$4960ee42@crc3.concentric.net> -----Original Message----- From: Craig Scull To: Business list for SJAA board of directors and members Date: Monday, October 27, 2003 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project >Can someone maintain the list of "required" and >"optional" characteristics our site must have? This >should be stored on a website (the club's?) for easy >reference. > I think this is still a bit early to formalize this process. I think we are still in the "brainstorming" stage as far as the board is concerned. In the end, the board will have to decide (vote) on an official course of action. 1. Should we invest (at all) in a SJAA owned (or leased?) site with the following characteristics Required 2. Road travel time (San Jose City Hall / Houge Park?) of _____ 3. Astronomical site characteristics at least as good as _____ 4. Size of ____ acres. ------ Optional ... I guess most everything else is "optional". In the end, for any type of affirmative vote on 1, the board will have to see a 2,3,4 that makes sense for a major club effort. A strong board majority is needed, but not necessarily unanimity. A majority of the club members will not have to use site regularly. But a substantial # will be necessary for it to be self-supporting from higher fees from those who do use it. Depending on the "goal" of such a site, the reasonable answers for 2,3,4 change. As Craig wrote, a "[Scenarios-" section will have to be written. I would find it more useful to write out some, with the required variables filled in, and "the goal" stated. This "goal" is the same as Gary's "underlying idea". S1 A site with eventually an observatory. Maybe not as big as the Fremont Peak scope. It would be *our* site. It could support 10 scopes, 20 people and 15 cars for a weekend. 2. Road travel time 2 hours 3. Astronomical site at least as good as Lake San Antonio 4. 2 acres (cleared) SX A site with a 16" in an observatory. Owned site. It could support 10 scopes, 20 people and 8 cars for a night. 2 Road travel time <1 hour 3 Site better than Montebello Ridge 4 1 acre (uncleared with restricted North) [join the PAS, live with the neighbor's garage light] SY A site with a 24" observatory. Leased site. It could support 1 telescope, 20 people in 5 cars for a night. 2 Road travel time 1 hr. 3 Site as good as (i.e. @) Lick Observatory 4 1/4 acre opt. dorm w/ hot showers and dinner [lease a site from UC Lick Observatory, old 24" variables] SZ A site with a 70" observatory. Leased site. It could support 5 telescopes, 10 people in 3 cars for a night. 2 Road travel time 3 hr. 3 Site as good as (i.e. @) Chews Ridge 4 2 acres opt. gnat infested public camp ground [Forest Service lease with Group 70's mirror] The UC California site survey done in the late 70's by Merle Walker showed that Mt. Juniperio Serra SE of Chews Ridge was the best site in CA. We could have a lot of fun with a closer site! From bill at nineplanets.org Tue Oct 28 00:46:25 2003 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project In-Reply-To: <01c39d1c$d090c6e0$4960ee42@crc3.concentric.net> References: <01c39d1c$d090c6e0$4960ee42@crc3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <36885994-0923-11D8-8E61-000A959822E4@nineplanets.org> It seems to me that if this idea is going to go anywhere, someone is going to have do some research come up with a few specific candidate locations. Spend an evening there. Check the prices. Measure the distance from Houge Park. Talking in the abstract is too abstract. We need to have some specific examples of what is possible. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org http://nineplanets.org/ Emerald Hills CA USA 37 27 N 122 15 W From RNapo at znet.com Tue Oct 28 00:53:42 2003 From: RNapo at znet.com (Rich N.) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project Message-ID: <004c01c39d30$fdb20800$78a23442@pavilion> Wait... I hear a voice. It sounds very far away. Yes! I can just make out the words. "Good idea. You do it." ;-) Rich ps Anyone recognizing that voice may get a cookie at the next board meeting. >It seems to me that if this idea is going to go anywhere, someone is >going to have do some research come up with a few specific candidate >locations. Spend an evening there. Check the prices. Measure the >distance from Houge Park. Talking in the abstract is too abstract. >We need to have some specific examples of what is possible. > >-- >Bill Arnett >bill@nineplanets.org http://nineplanets.org/ >Emerald Hills CA USA 37 27 N 122 15 W > >_______________________________________________ >SJAABoard mailing list >SJAABoard@sjaa.net >http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard From RNapo at znet.com Tue Oct 28 01:06:40 2003 From: RNapo at znet.com (Rich N.) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project Message-ID: <005501c39d32$cd4ce480$78a23442@pavilion> What is the point of the SJAA Observatory? Is visual observing of prime importance? Will there be more than one instrument? Do all the instruments have to be APO refractors? ;-) Do all the instruments have to be driven? How are you going to pervent theft and vandalism? How long will it take to get from Houge Park to the observing site? Rich >>Can someone maintain the list of "required" and >>"optional" characteristics our site must have? This >>should be stored on a website (the club's?) for easy >>reference. >> > > > I think this is still a bit early to formalize this process. I think we >are still in the "brainstorming" stage as far as the board is >concerned. In the end, the board will have to decide (vote) on >an official course of action. > >1. Should we invest (at all) in a SJAA owned (or leased?) >site with the following characteristics > >Required >2. Road travel time (San Jose City Hall / Houge Park?) of _____ >3. Astronomical site characteristics at least as good as _____ >4. Size of ____ acres. > >------ >Optional ... I guess most everything else is "optional". > > > In the end, for any type of affirmative vote on 1, the board will >have to see a 2,3,4 that makes sense for a major club effort. A >strong board majority is needed, but not necessarily unanimity. > > A majority of the club members will not have to use site regularly. >But a substantial # will be necessary for it to be self-supporting >from higher fees from those who do use it. Depending on the >"goal" of such a site, the reasonable answers for 2,3,4 change. > > As Craig wrote, a "[Scenarios-" section will have to be written. >I would find it more useful to write out some, with the required >variables filled in, and "the goal" stated. This "goal" is the same >as Gary's "underlying idea". > >S1 A site with eventually an observatory. Maybe not as >big as the Fremont Peak scope. It would be *our* >site. It could support 10 scopes, 20 people and >15 cars for a weekend. >2. Road travel time 2 hours >3. Astronomical site at least as good as Lake San Antonio >4. 2 acres (cleared) > >SX A site with a 16" in an observatory. Owned site. It could >support 10 scopes, 20 people and 8 cars for a night. >2 Road travel time <1 hour >3 Site better than Montebello Ridge >4 1 acre (uncleared with restricted North) >[join the PAS, live with the neighbor's garage light] > >SY A site with a 24" observatory. Leased site. It >could support 1 telescope, 20 people in 5 cars for >a night. >2 Road travel time 1 hr. >3 Site as good as (i.e. @) Lick Observatory >4 1/4 acre >opt. dorm w/ hot showers and dinner >[lease a site from UC Lick Observatory, old 24" variables] > >SZ A site with a 70" observatory. Leased site. >It could support 5 telescopes, 10 people in 3 cars for >a night. >2 Road travel time 3 hr. >3 Site as good as (i.e. @) Chews Ridge >4 2 acres >opt. gnat infested public camp ground >[Forest Service lease with Group 70's mirror] > > > The UC California site survey done in the late 70's >by Merle Walker showed that Mt. Juniperio Serra >SE of Chews Ridge was the best site in CA. >We could have a lot of fun with a closer site! > >_______________________________________________ >SJAABoard mailing list >SJAABoard@sjaa.net >http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Oct 28 01:17:34 2003 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project References: <01c39d1c$d090c6e0$4960ee42@crc3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <3F9E342E.54A5@aenet.net> wendy&steve wrote: > I think this is still a bit early to formalize this process. I think we > are still in the "brainstorming" stage as far as the board is > concerned. In the end, the board will have to decide (vote) on > an official course of action. > > 1. Should we invest (at all) in a SJAA owned (or leased?) The SJAA has talked about it for *many* years. I think we want to, it's just a question of being able to pull it off. Owning property is no small thing for a club this size. > Required > 2. Road travel time (San Jose City Hall / Houge Park?) of _____ Would it be better to talk about distances or general areas instead? > The UC California site survey done in the late 70's > by Merle Walker showed that Mt. Juniperio Serra > SE of Chews Ridge was the best site in CA. > We could have a lot of fun with a closer site! Sounds like a good spot for Group 70. I like the idea of the SJAA going in with Group 70. It might be a little further away, but it would be worth it. For those who don't want to travel far, there's plenty of fun at the sites we've been using. Gary From bill at nineplanets.org Tue Oct 28 01:42:35 2003 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project In-Reply-To: <004c01c39d30$fdb20800$78a23442@pavilion> References: <004c01c39d30$fdb20800$78a23442@pavilion> Message-ID: <0F9B8D4E-092B-11D8-8E61-000A959822E4@nineplanets.org> :-) I already did my survey and chose my spot :-) But I had different parameters to consider :-( On Oct 28, 2003, at 12:53 AM, Rich N. wrote: > Wait... I hear a voice. It sounds very far away. Yes! I can > just make out the words. "Good idea. You do it." ;-) > > Rich > ps Anyone recognizing that voice may get a cookie at the > next board meeting. > >> It seems to me that if this idea is going to go anywhere, someone is >> going to have do some research come up with a few specific candidate >> locations. Spend an evening there. Check the prices. Measure the >> distance from Houge Park. Talking in the abstract is too abstract. >> We need to have some specific examples of what is possible. >> >> -- >> Bill Arnett >> bill@nineplanets.org http://nineplanets.org/ >> Emerald Hills CA USA 37 27 N 122 15 W >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SJAABoard mailing list >> SJAABoard@sjaa.net >> http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org http://nineplanets.org/ Emerald Hills CA USA 37 27 N 122 15 W From akkana at shallowsky.com Tue Oct 28 09:40:29 2003 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana Peck) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project In-Reply-To: <3F9E342E.54A5@aenet.net> References: <01c39d1c$d090c6e0$4960ee42@crc3.concentric.net> <3F9E342E.54A5@aenet.net> Message-ID: <20031028174029.GA17919@shallowsky.com> Gary Mitchell writes: > I like the idea of the SJAA going in with Group 70. It might > be a little further away, but it would be worth it. For It sounds very appealing -- but isn't the Group 70 scope planned to be photographic only? I think that would appeal to a fairly small minority of SJAA members. Though if the plan is to share the land with them, and let SJAA members use their own (and loaner) scopes on the site, that might work well for everybody. I'm less convinced about the need for SJAA to build a permanent fixed observatory and telescope, when we already have such a successful loaner program. I suppose it would be good for people with motorcycles, small cars, or bad backs who can't carry the big loaner dobs (but speaking as someone who used to be in that group, I ended up joining both PAS and SJAA anyway since they're complementary.) On sharing with a school in the Los Gatos Hills: I hope SJAA can look into it. That could be very interesting and could work out well. (Are they thinking about building an observatory, or just sharing a patch of grass with a dark sky?) But there are a lot of questions to ask: it's rare these days to find a school willing to turn the lights off; schools often have a lot of complicated access rules about who can access what area at what time; we'd want to know whether they'd expect volunteers to be there on a regular basis. All of these can be worked out to everybody's satisfaction if there's someone at the school who's willing to work with us, but if we end up with something like Foothill, where we can't turn off the parking lot lights and we have to commit to having someone there every Friday to teach someone's class for them, it's best to know that up front. ...Akkana From mgwagner at resource-intl.com Tue Oct 28 10:16:59 2003 From: mgwagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project In-Reply-To: <20031028174029.GA17919@shallowsky.com> References: <3F9E342E.54A5@aenet.net> <01c39d1c$d090c6e0$4960ee42@crc3.concentric.net> <3F9E342E.54A5@aenet.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031028100106.02c20b08@mail201.pair.com> At 10/28/2003, Akkana wrote: >It sounds very appealing -- but isn't the Group 70 scope planned to be >photographic only? :-) Good catch! It is for CCD. >I'm less convinced about the need for SJAA to build a permanent fixed >observatory and telescope Right. I would prefer just a nice piece of land, with a few amenities. Those of us who go to remote sites regularly could come up with a pertinent wish list easily enough. >On sharing with a school in the Los Gatos Hills: I hope SJAA can look into it. If it doesn't want to, I am interested enough in looking for another way to do it. The proximity is very attractive, and skies up in the Santa Cruz Mtns. can be quite dark - equal to Coe or the Peak, better than Montebello. Plus.... might I say when it comes to the Los Gatos schools.... there's gold in them thar hills... there's some rather well off benefactors around that regularly support educational projects in their home town. >(Are they thinking about building an observatory...) Yes, I think that is what their interest is. Right now the district is heavily involved in construction at two schools, so it is not the right time to get things rolling, but it is not too early to at least begin defining what the parameters of such a project might be, what areas of responsibility, access, etc. could be. > But there are a lot of questions to ask Yes. Mark Wagner From jvn at svpal.org Tue Oct 28 11:03:13 2003 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project References: <3F9E342E.54A5@aenet.net> <01c39d1c$d090c6e0$4960ee42@crc3.concentric.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20031028100106.02c20b08@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: <3F9EBD71.735C@svpal.org> Mark Wagner wrote: > > At 10/28/2003, Akkana wrote: > > >It sounds very appealing -- but isn't the Group 70 scope planned to be > >photographic only? > > :-) Good catch! It is for CCD. After the reports of visual observing using the 60 and 100 inch at Wilson, I have total confidence that there will be provision for putting an eyepiece into the G-70 scope. For myself, I can look at other's images; I don't need to duplicate their efforts, however much I appreciate them; however much I love their results. I want the experience the old photons directly. Eyeball(s)! Clear Skies! -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site From RNapo at znet.com Tue Oct 28 21:40:36 2003 From: RNapo at znet.com (Rich N.) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:23 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project Message-ID: <001601c39ddf$2ec90660$b3a23442@pavilion> Hi Jim, As far as I know Mark is right. True, I haven't been involved in discussions with Group 70 people for a couple of years but the last I heard it would be a non-visual telescope. I asked several times about some provision for being able to use an eyepiece in the Group 70 telescope. I was told there wouldn't be provision made to use an eyepiece in that telescope. Rich >Mark Wagner wrote: >> >> At 10/28/2003, Akkana wrote: >> >> >It sounds very appealing -- but isn't the Group 70 scope planned to be >> >photographic only? >> >> :-) Good catch! It is for CCD. > > After the reports of visual observing using the 60 and 100 inch at >Wilson, I have total confidence that there will be provision for putting >an eyepiece into the G-70 scope. > > > For myself, I can look at other's images; I don't need to duplicate >their efforts, however much I appreciate them; however much I love their >results. > > I want the experience the old photons directly. Eyeball(s)! > >Clear Skies! >-- >Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association >JVN's web site > >_______________________________________________ >SJAABoard mailing list >SJAABoard@sjaa.net >http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard From craigus at rocketmail.com Wed Oct 29 00:13:26 2003 From: craigus at rocketmail.com (Craig Scull) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:23 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project In-Reply-To: <01c39d1c$d090c6e0$4960ee42@crc3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <20031029081326.97864.qmail@web13604.mail.yahoo.com> > I think this is still a bit early to formalize this > process. I think we > are still in the "brainstorming" stage as far as the > board is > concerned. In the end, the board will have to decide > (vote) on > an official course of action. A web site is a means to making sense out of the "chaos" in this list. Ideas have been bounced around for a long time and they seem to be going in circles. Granted each circle might be pushing us a little forward but there's no way to "see" incremental progress (assuming it exists). Documenting ideas no matter how rough is going to move this forward. I don't mind hosting a non-SJAA logo web page on my own domain if it will make things easier and less beuracratic. My .02 Craig --- wendy&steve wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Craig Scull > To: Business list for SJAA board of directors and > members > > Date: Monday, October 27, 2003 1:09 PM > Subject: Re: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project > > > >Can someone maintain the list of "required" and > >"optional" characteristics our site must have? This > >should be stored on a website (the club's?) for easy > >reference. > > > > > I think this is still a bit early to formalize this > process. I think we > are still in the "brainstorming" stage as far as the > board is > concerned. In the end, the board will have to decide > (vote) on > an official course of action. > > 1. Should we invest (at all) in a SJAA owned (or > leased?) > site with the following characteristics > > Required > 2. Road travel time (San Jose City Hall / Houge Park?) > of _____ > 3. Astronomical site characteristics at least as good > as _____ > 4. Size of ____ acres. > > ------ > Optional ... I guess most everything else is > "optional". > > > In the end, for any type of affirmative vote on 1, the > board will > have to see a 2,3,4 that makes sense for a major club > effort. A > strong board majority is needed, but not necessarily > unanimity. > > A majority of the club members will not have to use > site regularly. > But a substantial # will be necessary for it to be > self-supporting > from higher fees from those who do use it. Depending on > the > "goal" of such a site, the reasonable answers for 2,3,4 > change. > > As Craig wrote, a "[Scenarios-" section will have to > be written. > I would find it more useful to write out some, with the > required > variables filled in, and "the goal" stated. This > "goal" is the same > as Gary's "underlying idea". > > S1 A site with eventually an observatory. Maybe not as > big as the Fremont Peak scope. It would be *our* > site. It could support 10 scopes, 20 people and > 15 cars for a weekend. > 2. Road travel time 2 hours > 3. Astronomical site at least as good as Lake San > Antonio > 4. 2 acres (cleared) > > SX A site with a 16" in an observatory. Owned site. It > could > support 10 scopes, 20 people and 8 cars for a night. > 2 Road travel time <1 hour > 3 Site better than Montebello Ridge > 4 1 acre (uncleared with restricted North) > [join the PAS, live with the neighbor's garage light] > > SY A site with a 24" observatory. Leased site. It > could support 1 telescope, 20 people in 5 cars for > a night. > 2 Road travel time 1 hr. > 3 Site as good as (i.e. @) Lick Observatory > 4 1/4 acre > opt. dorm w/ hot showers and dinner > [lease a site from UC Lick Observatory, old 24" > variables] > > SZ A site with a 70" observatory. Leased site. > It could support 5 telescopes, 10 people in 3 cars for > a night. > 2 Road travel time 3 hr. > 3 Site as good as (i.e. @) Chews Ridge > 4 2 acres > opt. gnat infested public camp ground > [Forest Service lease with Group 70's mirror] > > > The UC California site survey done in the late 70's > by Merle Walker showed that Mt. Juniperio Serra > SE of Chews Ridge was the best site in CA. > We could have a lot of fun with a closer site! > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Oct 28 16:39:21 2003 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:23 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] SJAA observing site project References: <01c39d1c$d090c6e0$4960ee42@crc3.concentric.net> <3F9E342E.54A5@aenet.net> <20031028174029.GA17919@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <3F9F0C39.2CC@aenet.net> Akkana Peck wrote: > > Gary Mitchell writes: > > I like the idea of the SJAA going in with Group 70. It might > > be a little further away, but it would be worth it. For > > It sounds very appealing -- but isn't the Group 70 scope planned to be > photographic only? I've heard that too, among other things, such has having it be completely robotic and remotely controlled. However, so far as I know nothing has been settled. > I think that would appeal to a fairly small minority > of SJAA members. Though if the plan is to share the land with them, and > let SJAA members use their own (and loaner) scopes on the site, that > might work well for everybody. That was my idea, mostly... to jointly get a site, maybe share the 70". It would depend on a great many things, I suppose. It's just a rough idea. The basic point is that both groups apparently are interested in doing the same thing. If we could join forces, it would be easier on both of us. For instance, maybe SJAA could get the land and Group 70 would take care of the facilities... or whatever. > I'm less convinced about the need for SJAA to build a permanent fixed > observatory and telescope, when we already have such a successful loaner > program. I see those as two completely separate things. Gary From bill at nineplanets.org Wed Oct 29 16:16:26 2003 From: bill at nineplanets.org (Bill Arnett) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:23 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] webmaster Message-ID: <4D12F930-0A6E-11D8-8E98-000A959822E4@nineplanets.org> It's time for a new SJAA webmaster. It's not a big job. But Mojo is suggesting that we find a new server to host our domain and our site and the new webmaster might as well make the choice rather than me. I'll continue until someone else volunteers. -- Bill Arnett bill@nineplanets.org http://nineplanets.org/ Emerald Hills CA USA 37 27 N 122 15 W From mgwagner at resource-intl.com Thu Oct 30 19:42:25 2003 From: mgwagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:23 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Eclipse promotion? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031030193841.00ba4c98@mail201.pair.com> Got this e-mail today: >Last month at the SJAA meeting, I thought I remembered Mike Koop saying >that the SJAA was planning a star party at Hogue Park for the lunar >eclipse. I thought I remmbered something about starting at 5pm or >something. I looked around at websites, but couldn't find any listings to >that account. Do you know anything about it? Isn't the eclipse the same >night as the SJAA monthly meeting a week from Saturday? I don't see anything on the web-page. BTW.... I will be the first to thank Bill Arnett for being the SJAA web-master for soooo long. It is a great resource, and has been managed very capably and professionally. Thanks Bill. Mark Wagner From koopm at koopm.best.vwh.net Thu Oct 30 19:45:53 2003 From: koopm at koopm.best.vwh.net (Michael Koop) Date: Sat Sep 30 03:57:23 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Eclipse promotion? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031030193841.00ba4c98@mail201.pair.com> Message-ID: I'm working on it right now....... Mike On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Mark Wagner wrote: > > Got this e-mail today: > > >Last month at the SJAA meeting, I thought I remembered Mike Koop saying > >that the SJAA was planning a star party at Hogue Park for the lunar > >eclipse. I thought I remmbered something about starting at 5pm or > >something. I looked around at websites, but couldn't find any listings to > >that account. Do you know anything about it? Isn't the eclipse the same > >night as the SJAA monthly meeting a week from Saturday? > > I don't see anything on the web-page. > > BTW.... I will be the first to thank Bill Arnett for being the SJAA > web-master for soooo long. It is a great resource, and has been managed > very capably and professionally. Thanks Bill. > > Mark Wagner > > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard >