From craigus at rocketmail.com Fri Dec 1 10:14:35 2006 From: craigus at rocketmail.com (Craig Scull) Date: Fri Dec 1 10:14:40 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris delivery Message-ID: <20061201181435.55228.qmail@web54507.mail.yahoo.com> I have not received my ephemeris in the mail... ...because I access it from the web :) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20061201/b3a50a53/attachment.html From craigus at rocketmail.com Fri Dec 1 10:50:21 2006 From: craigus at rocketmail.com (Craig Scull) Date: Fri Dec 1 10:50:25 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] November 4 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes Message-ID: <20061201185021.29625.qmail@web54505.mail.yahoo.com> Sorry this is so late! It's been a particularly nasty month of overtime which hopefully will not repeat itself. -Craig ========================================================== November 4, 2006 - SJAA Board Meeting Minutes - Craig Scull ========================================================== October minutes were approved by a motion from Gary and seconded by Rich. No one abstained. ------------------------------------- Members present ------------------------------------- *-Mike Koop *-Rob Hawley *-Rich Neuschaefer *-Gary Mitchell *-Lee Hoglan *-Gordon Reade *-Craig Scull (late) *-Dave Smith ------------------------------------- Treasurer's report ------------------------------------- ACCOUNTS AS OF 11/4/2006: CD 1 5,076.34 CD 2 5,167.51 CD 3 5,000.00 Checking 1,497.62 Obs. Fund 3,100.51 PayPal 306.44 Savings 403.55 Petty Cash 75.45 ------------ OVERALL TOTAL 20,627.42 The RASC books and calendars have arrived and will be available at meetings and the swap until they?re gone. ------------------------------------- Membership report ------------------------------------- The stats are going to be a little weird this month since the report is being cut on the first day of the month. Expirations for November have yet to be mailed. Report Date 11/1/2006 expired 58 Number of memberships that expire in each month Sep-06 10 Oct-06 12 Nov-06 11 Dec-06 16 Jan-07 16 Feb-07 25 Mar-07 23 Apr-07 11 May-07 24 Jun-07 57 Jul-07 22 Aug-07 28 Sep-07 18 Oct-07 15 Nov-07 9 Dec-07 3 more than 13 months 4 complementary 32 expiring 22 paid(current) 282 email delivery 27 Labels Generated 299 S&T Members 187 New Members since last meeting 6 current + complementary 314 total paid compl new 9/7/2006 318 289 29 7 10/4/2006 316 285 31 7 What month do memberships expire? expired 58 Sep-06 9 Oct-06 8 Nov-06 9 Dec-06 13 Jan-07 16 Feb-07 23 Mar-07 23 Apr-07 11 May-07 24 Jun-07 57 Jul-07 22 Aug-07 27 Sep-07 18 Oct-07 17 Nov-07 13 Dec-07 7 more than 13 months 7 complementary 33 expiring 17 paid(current) 287 email delivery 28 Labels Generated 300 S&T Members 187 New Members since last meeting 10 current + complementary 320 ------------------------------------- Loaner scope program ------------------------------------- Mike has loaned 2 scopes to Benjamin Mendelson. Not much happening otherwise in terms of demand for new scopes. ------------------------------------- Observational astronomy class ------------------------------------- Mike out of town on 10th. Gordon and Rob will substitute ------------------------------------- ATM Class ------------------------------------- Only Gary is working on a mirror right now. ------------------------------------- General Meeting Programs ------------------------------------- Chiloh is on and will redo panoramic video. December meeting will be white elephant exchange and potluck. Bob Fules will do upcoming talk on mirror aluminizing. ------------------------------------- Houge Park ------------------------------------- Last two star parties were good. Calendar is due to Cadem. No more information about the future of the park. ------------------------------------- School star parties ------------------------------------- Good events last month. Plenty of events coming. ------------------------------------- Observatory committee ------------------------------------- On the backburner for now. Will be scheduling another series of summer star parties next year to further cultivate the reputation of the Willow Springs site in order to continue attracting interest by those want to install instruments on the site (sheds, observatories, storage containers). ------------------------------------- Fall swap Nov 5th ------------------------------------- We will let buyers know that they are responsible for paying "use tax." ------------------------------------- Mercury Transit Event ------------------------------------- Rich will be at Houge park rain or shine. Weather looks uncertain. ------------------------------------- Ephemeris ------------------------------------- Sealing newsletters helped with delivery time. Will have printer print labels for us this month and see how that works out. ------------------------------------- Calstar Debrief ------------------------------------- Calstar will be a "dark sky" event. There was much discussion about the intrusiveness of green lasers at the last Calstar. It was felt that up to a certain maximum wattage the green lasers are not problematic, but since this is impossible to enforce The meeting was adjourned at 7:50pm ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20061201/0921c93f/attachment.html From craigus at rocketmail.com Fri Dec 1 14:09:20 2006 From: craigus at rocketmail.com (Craig Scull) Date: Fri Dec 1 14:09:24 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: November 4 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes Message-ID: <918575.93813.qm@web54502.mail.yahoo.com> I see that I left out a paragraph from the Calstar discussion. ******Missing paragraph******* A group of unknown people were at the event. An astronomer lost an eyepiece. We're not sure if there is a connection between these two events. Gary made a motion that Rob should follow up with his list of suggestions for how to make the next Calstar go more smoothly. One exception to Rob's list is that Calstar will be advertised in Sky & Telescope and Astronomy magazines. There will be no green lasers allowed at next year's Calstar. *********************************** I think this is complete now (at least from my notes). /Craig Craig Scull wrote: Sorry this is so late! It's been a particularly nasty month of overtime which hopefully will not repeat itself. -Craig ========================================================== November 4, 2006 - SJAA Board Meeting Minutes - Craig Scull ========================================================== October minutes were approved by a motion from Gary and seconded by Rich. No one abstained. ------------------------------------- Members present ------------------------------------- *-Mike Koop *-Rob Hawley *-Rich Neuschaefer *-Gary Mitchell *-Lee Hoglan *-Gordon Reade *-Craig Scull (late) *-Dave Smith ------------------------------------- Treasurer's report ------------------------------------- ACCOUNTS AS OF 11/4/2006: CD 1 5,076.34 CD 2 5,167.51 CD 3 5,000.00 Checking 1,497.62 Obs. Fund 3,100.51 PayPal 306.44 Savings 403.55 Petty Cash 75.45 ------------ OVERALL TOTAL 20,627.42 The RASC books and calendars have arrived and will be available at meetings and the swap until they?re gone. ------------------------------------- Membership report ------------------------------------- The stats are going to be a little weird this month since the report is being cut on the first day of the month. Expirations for November have yet to be mailed. Report Date 11/1/2006 expired 58 Number of memberships that expire in each month Sep-06 10 Oct-06 12 Nov-06 11 Dec-06 16 Jan-07 16 Feb-07 25 Mar-07 23 Apr-07 11 May-07 24 Jun-07 57 Jul-07 22 Aug-07 28 Sep-07 18 Oct-07 15 Nov-07 9 Dec-07 3 more than 13 months 4 complementary 32 expiring 22 paid(current) 282 email delivery 27 Labels Generated 299 S&T Members 187 New Members since last meeting 6 current + complementary 314 total paid compl new 9/7/2006 318 289 29 7 10/4/2006 316 285 31 7 What month do memberships expire? expired 58 Sep-06 9 Oct-06 8 Nov-06 9 Dec-06 13 Jan-07 16 Feb-07 23 Mar-07 23 Apr-07 11 May-07 24 Jun-07 57 Jul-07 22 Aug-07 27 Sep-07 18 Oct-07 17 Nov-07 13 Dec-07 7 more than 13 months 7 complementary 33 expiring 17 paid(current) 287 email delivery 28 Labels Generated 300 S&T Members 187 New Members since last meeting 10 current + complementary 320 ------------------------------------- Loaner scope program ------------------------------------- Mike has loaned 2 scopes to Benjamin Mendelson. Not much happening otherwise in terms of demand for new scopes. ------------------------------------- Observational astronomy class ------------------------------------- Mike out of town on 10th. Gordon and Rob will substitute ------------------------------------- ATM Class ------------------------------------- Only Gary is working on a mirror right now. ------------------------------------- General Meeting Programs ------------------------------------- Chiloh is on and will redo panoramic video. December meeting will be white elephant exchange and potluck. Bob Fules will do upcoming talk on mirror aluminizing. ------------------------------------- Houge Park ------------------------------------- Last two star parties were good. Calendar is due to Cadem. No more information about the future of the park. ------------------------------------- School star parties ------------------------------------- Good events last month. Plenty of events coming. ------------------------------------- Observatory committee ------------------------------------- On the backburner for now. Will be scheduling another series of summer star parties next year to further cultivate the reputation of the Willow Springs site in order to continue attracting interest by those want to install instruments on the site (sheds, observatories, storage containers). ------------------------------------- Fall swap Nov 5th ------------------------------------- We will let buyers know that they are responsible for paying "use tax." ------------------------------------- Mercury Transit Event ------------------------------------- Rich will be at Houge park rain or shine. Weather looks uncertain. ------------------------------------- Ephemeris ------------------------------------- Sealing newsletters helped with delivery time. Will have printer print labels for us this month and see how that works out. ------------------------------------- Calstar Debrief ------------------------------------- Calstar will be a "dark sky" event. There was much discussion about the intrusiveness of green lasers at the last Calstar. It was felt that up to a certain maximum wattage the green lasers are not problematic, but since this is impossible to enforce ******Missing paragraph******* A group of unknown people were at the event. An astronomer lost an eyepiece. We're not sure if there is a connection between these two events. Gary made a motion that Rob should follow up with his list of suggestions for how to make the next Calstar go more smoothly. One exception to Rob's list is that Calstar will be advertised in Sky & Telescope and Astronomy magazines. There will be no green lasers allowed at next year's Calstar. *********************************** The meeting was adjourned at 7:50pm --------------------------------- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20061201/bdafe0c0/attachment.html From jvn at svpal.org Sat Dec 2 16:06:48 2006 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Sat Dec 2 16:11:29 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: School star party statistics, Dec.2 2006 References: <44FF6EC5.5E91@svpal.org> <4526CC85.7A3F@svpal.org> <4542874C.6A8B@svpal.org> Message-ID: <45721518.146B@svpal.org> Hi, All, Here are the tallies as of Dec.2, for the school star party program. It's been a very busy month scheduling events. Going to the schools is the easy part. Events conducted in Aug: 1 Events conducted in Sep: 1 Events conducted in Oct: 6, plus 1 mostly cloudy event Events conducted in Nov: 5, plus 1 mostly cloudy, 1 rained on, 5 cancel. In November, we went to two schools despite poor prospects. At one, we had light rain and did not set up. At the other, we had clouds for a while, then showed Albireo to perhaps 75. After all but one family had left, the sky opened up and we did a quick several objects. Coming attractions: Firm Provisional (explanation) Dec 6 0 (4 are re-schedules) Jan 8 0 Feb 4 1 (rain date) Mar 6 0 Apr 0 1 (rain date) Nov 1 0 (next school year) Clear Skies! -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site From wb6yru at aenet.net Sat Dec 2 16:28:07 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sat Dec 2 16:27:12 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Treasurer's report for December 2006 board meeting Message-ID: <45721A17.2000503@aenet.net> ACCOUNTS AS OF 12/2/2006: CD 1 5,076.34 CD 2 5,167.51 CD 3 5,000.00 Checking 3,605.68 Observatory Fund 3,100.51 PayPal 146.76 Savings 403.55 Petty Cash 37.33 ------------ OVERALL TOTAL 22,537.68 Fall swap results: $414.90 swap donations ("voluntary commissions") $331.00 sales of club owned stuff. Gary Mitchell, Treasurer From koopm at koopm.best.vwh.net Sat Dec 2 16:43:24 2006 From: koopm at koopm.best.vwh.net (Michael Koop) Date: Sat Dec 2 16:43:31 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Board Meeting Agenda for Tonight Message-ID: <20061202173753.G43399@koopm.best.vwh.net> SJAA Board Meeting December 2, 2006 Agenda Starting 6 PM I) Meeting Called to Order II) Review and Approve Last Meeting Minutes III) Typical Business A) Treasury Report (Gary): CD 1 $5,076.34 / CD 2 $5,167.51 / CD 3 $5,000.00 / Checking $3,605.68 / Observatory Fund $3,100.51 / PayPal $146.76 / Savings $403.55 / Petty Cash $37.33 / OVERALL TOTAL $22,537.68 B) Membership Report (Rob) As of Nov 18 Paid: 287 Comp: 33 Expire: 17 New: 10 Total: 320 C) Loaner Scope Program Report (Mike): Upgrades for Scopes? D) Observational Astronomy Class Report (Rob): E) ATM Class (Mike) F) General Meeting Programs (Dave) G) Houge Park SP (Gary) H) School Star Party Report: (Gordon): Star Party at San Jose King Library on 11/30 I) Observatory Committee (Craig) J) Calendar Dec 7 -Th- ATM workshop at Houge Park. 7:30 pm Dec 15 -Fr- Houge Park star party. Sset 4:51 pm, 16% moon rise 3:24 am. Star party hours: 7:00 to 10:00 pm. Astronomy Class at Houge Park. 7:30 pm Dec 16 -Sa- Dark-Sky weekend. Sset 4:52 pm, 10% moon rise 4:37 am. Dec 23 -Sa- Dark-Sky weekend. Sset 4:55 pm, 16% moon sets 8:05 pm. Dec 29 -Fr- Houge Park star party. Sset 4:59 pm, 80% moon sets 3:28 am. Star party hours: 7:00 to 10:00 pm. Dec 30 -Sa- ATM workshop at Houge Park. 7:30 pm Jan 6 -Sa- General Meeting. Speaker is Bob Fies, talking about the process of aluminizing telescope mirrors. Board meeting at 6:00; General Meeting at 8:00 K) Next AANC Meeting: Dec 3 at Chabot starting 9:30, Convention Setat CSM on 9/29/07 IV) New Business A) Fall Swap Debrief B) Mercury Transit Debrief C) Houge Park Issues: Calendar, Floors, & Curbs / Facility Reuse Meeting on Dec 8th 1:30 4:30 PM D) Spirit of the Holidays: Donations at Star Parties? E) Board Meetings: When to Have them, Email vs Physical Meetings, How many Required to Attend F) Press Interviews G) Other Topics: Open Director Seat / Directors Liability Insurance / Calstar Issues H) Items to Add? I) J) From robhawley at earthlink.net Sat Dec 2 16:54:44 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Sat Dec 2 16:54:48 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Membership report will be delayed Message-ID: <000301c71675$a03b8b30$0300a8c0@robathome> Again since this is the 2nd day of the month it is too early in the month to prepare a membership report. I will do it again as a part of generating the mailing labels about the 3rd week of December. Rob Hawley From craigus at rocketmail.com Sat Dec 2 21:13:41 2006 From: craigus at rocketmail.com (Craig Scull) Date: Sat Dec 2 21:13:53 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] November 4 , 2006 - Final SJAA Board Meeting Minutes Message-ID: <20061203051341.28863.qmail@web54515.mail.yahoo.com> Final version below... Shiloh's name is spelled correctly in this version. ========================================================== November 4, 2006 - SJAA Board Meeting Minutes - Craig Scull ========================================================== October minutes were approved by a motion from Gary and seconded by Rich. No one abstained. ------------------------------------- Members present ------------------------------------- *-Mike Koop *-Rob Hawley *-Rich Neuschaefer *-Gary Mitchell *-Lee Hoglan *-Gordon Reade *-Craig Scull (late) *-Dave Smith ------------------------------------- Treasurer's report ------------------------------------- ACCOUNTS AS OF 11/4/2006: CD 1 5,076.34 CD 2 5,167.51 CD 3 5,000.00 Checking 1,497.62 Obs. Fund 3,100.51 PayPal 306.44 Savings 403.55 Petty Cash 75.45 ------------ OVERALL TOTAL 20,627.42 The RASC books and calendars have arrived and will be available at meetings and the swap until they?re gone. ------------------------------------- Membership report ------------------------------------- The stats are going to be a little weird this month since the report is being cut on the first day of the month. Expirations for November have yet to be mailed. Report Date 11/1/2006 expired 58 Number of memberships that expire in each month Sep-06 10 Oct-06 12 Nov-06 11 Dec-06 16 Jan-07 16 Feb-07 25 Mar-07 23 Apr-07 11 May-07 24 Jun-07 57 Jul-07 22 Aug-07 28 Sep-07 18 Oct-07 15 Nov-07 9 Dec-07 3 more than 13 months 4 complementary 32 expiring 22 paid(current) 282 email delivery 27 Labels Generated 299 S&T Members 187 New Members since last meeting 6 current + complementary 314 total paid compl new 9/7/2006 318 289 29 7 10/4/2006 316 285 31 7 What month do memberships expire? expired 58 Sep-06 9 Oct-06 8 Nov-06 9 Dec-06 13 Jan-07 16 Feb-07 23 Mar-07 23 Apr-07 11 May-07 24 Jun-07 57 Jul-07 22 Aug-07 27 Sep-07 18 Oct-07 17 Nov-07 13 Dec-07 7 more than 13 months 7 complementary 33 expiring 17 paid(current) 287 email delivery 28 Labels Generated 300 S&T Members 187 New Members since last meeting 10 current + complementary 320 ------------------------------------- Loaner scope program ------------------------------------- Mike has loaned 2 scopes to Benjamin Mendelson. Not much happening otherwise in terms of demand for new scopes. ------------------------------------- Observational astronomy class ------------------------------------- Mike out of town on 10th. Gordon and Rob will substitute ------------------------------------- ATM Class ------------------------------------- Only Gary is working on a mirror right now. ------------------------------------- General Meeting Programs ------------------------------------- Shiloh is on and will redo panoramic video. December meeting will be white elephant exchange and potluck. Bob Fules will do upcoming talk on mirror aluminizing. ------------------------------------- Houge Park ------------------------------------- Last two star parties were good. Calendar is due to Cadem. No more information about the future of the park. ------------------------------------- School star parties ------------------------------------- Good events last month. Plenty of events coming. ------------------------------------- Observatory committee ------------------------------------- On the backburner for now. Will be scheduling another series of summer star parties next year to further cultivate the reputation of the Willow Springs site in order to continue attracting interest by those want to install instruments on the site (sheds, observatories, storage containers). ------------------------------------- Fall swap Nov 5th ------------------------------------- We will let buyers know that they are responsible for paying "use tax." ------------------------------------- Mercury Transit Event ------------------------------------- Rich will be at Houge park rain or shine. Weather looks uncertain. ------------------------------------- Ephemeris ------------------------------------- Sealing newsletters helped with delivery time. Will have printer print labels for us this month and see how that works out. ------------------------------------- Calstar Debrief ------------------------------------- Calstar will be a "dark sky" event. There was much discussion about the intrusiveness of green lasers at the last Calstar. It was felt that up to a certain maximum wattage the green lasers are not problematic, but since this is impossible to enforce A group of unknown people were at the event. An astronomer lost an eyepiece. We're not sure if there is a connection between these two events. Gary made a motion that Rob should follow up with his list of suggestions for how to make the next Calstar go more smoothly. One exception to Rob's list is that Calstar will be advertised in Sky & Telescope and Astronomy magazines. There will be no green lasers allowed at next year's Calstar. The meeting was adjourned at 7:50pm ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20061202/442156b4/attachment.html From craigus at rocketmail.com Sat Dec 2 22:53:40 2006 From: craigus at rocketmail.com (Craig Scull) Date: Sat Dec 2 22:53:44 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] December 2 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes Message-ID: <20061203065340.12192.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com> Here are the meeting minutes... ========================================================== December 2, 2006 - SJAA Board Meeting Minutes - Craig Scull ========================================================== November minutes were approved by a motion from Mike and seconded by Rob. No one abstained. ------------------------------------- Members present ------------------------------------- *-Mike Koop *-Rob Hawley *-Rich Neuschaefer *-Gary Mitchell *-Lee Hoglan *-Gordon Reade *-Craig Scull *-Dave Smith ------------------------------------- Treasurer's report ------------------------------------- ACCOUNTS AS OF 12/2/2006: CD 1 5,076.34 CD 2 5,167.51 CD 3 5,000.00 Checking 3,605.68 Observatory Fund 3,100.51 Pay Pal 146.76 Savings 403.55 Petty Cash 37.33 ------------ OVERALL TOTAL 22,537.68 Fall swap results: $414.90 swap donations ("voluntary commissions") $331.00 sales of club owned stuff. ------------------------------------- Membership report ------------------------------------- Again since this is the 2nd day of the month it is too early in the month to prepare a membership report. I will do it again as a part of generating the mailing labels about the 3rd week of December. Rob As of Nov 18 Paid: 287 Comp: 33 Expire: 17 New: 10 Total: 320 ------------------------------------- Loaner scope program ------------------------------------- No demand for loaner scopes. It was suggested that we upgrade or replace equipment, possibly in line with suggestions by the members, such as those who attend the observational astronomy class. Equipment that is not getting used should possibly be sold. ------------------------------------- Observational astronomy class ------------------------------------- The last class was well attended. This may be a good opportunity to remind our members that we have a loaner scope program. ------------------------------------- ATM Class ------------------------------------- Only Gary is working on a mirror right now. Tom is going to start work on a 10" ------------------------------------- General Meeting Programs ------------------------------------- Bob Fies will do upcoming talk on mirror aluminizing. Other speakers were referenced but not recorded in the notes. Let the secretary (me) know if you need them to be added to the notes. ------------------------------------- Houge Park ------------------------------------- Recent parties were clouded out for the most part though people still showed up. There has been an ongoing problem with "paperwork" being required, in the form of signature or other information having to be provided by the volunteer astronomers. The problem breaks down into the following parts: 1) logistic problems of signing a form in the dark and associated nuisances of white lights, cell phone lights 2) some percentage (up to 25% at one site) of students who are more interested in getting their form signed than looking at objects 3) volunteers' educational conversation about astronomy/objects that is interrupted by students who want to get their form signed 4) the loss of "observing" time and frustration of interruptions due to all of the above Rob passed a motion that the current system is unworkable and that we would not participate in filling out forms. The motion was seconded by Gary. 5 Voted in favor. 3 Voted against. It was discussed that there may be a better alternatives to meeting the needs of the teachers, such as having astronomers hand out sheets with information about the objects they were showing, or providing a sticker. ------------------------------------- School star parties ------------------------------------- Here are the tallies as of Dec. 2, for the school star party program. It's been a very busy month scheduling events. Going to the schools is the easy part. Events conducted in Aug: 1 Events conducted in Sep: 1 Events conducted in Oct: 6, plus 1 mostly cloudy event Events conducted in Nov: 5, plus 1 mostly cloudy, 1 rained on, 5 cancel. In November, we went to two schools despite poor prospects. At one, we had light rain and did not set up. At the other, we had clouds for a while, then showed Albireo to perhaps 75. After all but one family had left, the sky opened up and we did a quick several objects. Coming attractions: Firm Provisional (explanation) Dec 6 0 (4 are re-schedules) Jan 8 0 Feb 4 1 (rain date) Mar 6 0 Apr 0 1 (rain date) Nov 1 0 (next school year) Jim Van Nuland ------------------------------------- Observatory committee ------------------------------------- No real updates to speak of right now. Craig went observing with Bob last week. Bob sent out a general invite to his friends to join him to see the Geminid meteor shower on Dec 13th. ------------------------------------- Fall swap Nov 5th ------------------------------------- The swap was very successful. Mike will look into piggybacking the swap onto the Advanced Imaging Conference. There was extensive discussion around two issues: 1) The possible loss of income as a result of asking people to specify their donation to be 10% or $50 cap whichever is less. At the end of the discussion we decided to let people specify their donation at 10% or a dollar amount cap they specify, whichever is less. 2) The possible need for people to change their donation at the end of the auction during the checkout process. We decided that it would be important to let people adjust the amount of their donation up or down as the case may be. ------------------------------------- Calendar ------------------------------------- Dec 7 -Th- ATM workshop at Houge Park. 7:30 pm Dec 15 -Fr- Houge Park star party. Sset 4:51 pm, 16% moon rise 3:24 am. Star party hours: 7:00 to 10:00 pm. Astronomy Class at Houge Park. 7:30 pm Dec 16 -Sa- Dark-Sky weekend. Sset 4:52 pm, 10% moon rise 4:37 am. Dec 23 -Sa- Dark-Sky weekend. Sset 4:55 pm, 16% moon sets 8:05 pm. Dec 29 -Fr- Houge Park star party. Sset 4:59 pm, 80% moon sets 3:28 am. Star party hours: 7:00 to 10:00 pm. Dec 30 -Sa- ATM workshop at Houge Park. 7:30 pm Jan 6 -Sa- General Meeting. Speaker is Bob Fies, talking about the process of aluminizing telescope mirrors. Board meeting at 6:00; General Meeting at 8:00 ------------------------------------- Houge Park Issues ------------------------------------- Mike submitted a form to the city with the club's schedule for the next 6 months Mike asked the city if the club could hire janitors to clean the floors, but no real response has come yet. Mike asked the city about painting the Houge park curbs and parking stops traffic white to improve public safety at the SJAA star parties, but did not receive permission to do this. ------------------------------------- Board Meeting Policy ------------------------------------- Board members are reminded that they are required to attend 10 of the 12 meetings per year, so up to 2 absences are "excused." Rob made a motion that meetings be held once per quarter, but no one voted. There was some discussion around how meeting a couple hours once a month in person was a much more manageable time commitment than being required to participate via email throughout the entire month. Some history around the board meetings was shared -- board meetings used to be on different nights of the week, at various people's houses. Since everyone was already attending the general meeting it was decided at some point that it would be simpler to hold the meeting before the 8pm general meeting, because all the board members were already showing up and would only need to show up a little earlier. It was also felt that the time before the meeting was the least intrusive, as compared to a different time such as the afternoon or mid day. To give members increased visibility into the club's operations, it was decided that Mike would send his meeting agendas out to the general mailer 48 hours prior to each board meeting. It was also decided that to make the best use of the board's discussion time all regular reports would be sent to the board remailer 48 hours prior to each board meeting. ------------------------------------- AANC Meeting ------------------------------------- Next meeting is Dec 3 at Chabot 9:30am. The next convention is set to be at the College of San Mateo on 9/29/07 ------------------------------------- Mercury Transit Event ------------------------------------- Very successful. There were 13 telescopes and media coverage from channel 4. More than 200 people attended. ------------------------------------- Spirit of the Holidays - Donations at Club Events ------------------------------------- Mark Wagner proposed putting a barrel out to let people non perishable food to donate. Some concerns were raised about the fact that this had nothing to do with astronomy and was yet another expense of time. The club will try this next year as an experiment to see what food is collected. This will require the event announcements to included verbiage about bringing non-perishable food to donate. For simplicity, Mike would drop this off at the Harvest food collection area at work. ------------------------------------- Press Interviews ------------------------------------- The press contacted some board members to get input on the failure of the Mars Observer. Board members were reminded that when contacted by the press SJAA policy does not allow them to give out the names of SJAA members. They can however direct the press to the web site which has the contact information of the other board members in case they want to try talking to other board members. ------------------------------------- Steve Nelson Docent Training Class Materials Request ------------------------------------- Steve requested $100 to cover the expenses of the docent training class he is holding at Evergreen Community College. This request was approved. The docent program Steve has conceptualized could increase the number of volunteers available to help educate the public at star parties. The meeting was adjourned at 7:55pm ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20061202/d31dc815/attachment-0001.html From wb6yru at aenet.net Sun Dec 3 00:54:46 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sun Dec 3 00:53:57 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] December 2 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes In-Reply-To: <20061203065340.12192.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061203065340.12192.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <457290D6.9040907@aenet.net> Craig Scull wrote: > ========================================================== > December 2, 2006 - SJAA Board Meeting Minutes - Craig Scull > ========================================================== Wow, Craig, that was fast. :) Just to be clear: The following policy applies to all our public and school star parties, not just at Houge Park. > ------------------------------------- > Houge Park > ------------------------------------- > Recent parties were clouded out for the most part though people still showed > up. There has been an ongoing problem with "paperwork" being required, in > the form of signature or other information having to be provided by the > volunteer astronomers. > > The problem breaks down into the following parts: > 1) logistic problems of signing a form in the dark and associated nuisances > of white lights, cell phone lights > 2) some percentage (up to 25% at one site) of students who are more interested > in getting their form signed than looking at objects That should be 80% to 90%, not 25%. Up to 25% at one site don't even bother to look through the telescope, they had to be talked into it. And of those, a few resented being made to look, it got in the way of completing the forms. (That gets old real fast.) > 3) volunteers' educational conversation about astronomy/objects that is > interrupted by students who want to get their form signed > 4) the loss of "observing" time and frustration of interruptions due to all > of the above > > Rob passed a motion that the current system is unworkable and that we would > not participate in filling out forms. The motion was seconded by Gary. > 5 Voted in favor. 3 Voted against. It was discussed that there may be a > better alternatives to meeting the needs of the teachers, such as having > astronomers hand out sheets with information about the objects they were > showing, or providing a sticker. Rob made the motion, he didn't pass it. By the way, I noticed that the board members who voted against this policy almost never go to the school star parties and have very limited experience with those forms. Gary From robhawley at earthlink.net Sun Dec 3 07:21:27 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Sun Dec 3 07:21:36 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] December 2 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes In-Reply-To: <457290D6.9040907@aenet.net> Message-ID: <002a01c716ee$b3e7aa00$0300a8c0@robathome> > By the way, I noticed that the board members who voted > against this policy almost never go to the school star > parties and have very limited experience with those forms. Not true Mike and Rich are regulars at Houge. The forms are a problem there also. The central issue of why they could not support my resolution was that it does a hard cut-off of a process the school's require without providing an alternative. Rob Hawley > From akkana at shallowsky.com Sun Dec 3 10:31:23 2006 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana Peck) Date: Sun Dec 3 10:31:53 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <20061203065340.12192.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com> References: <457290D6.9040907@aenet.net> <002a01c716ee$b3e7aa00$0300a8c0@robathome> <20061203065340.12192.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061203183122.GA19354@shallowsky.com> Those forms are a pet peeve of mine. It was one of the reasons I stopped volunteering at the PAS' Foothill College observatory programs (and I told them so at the time): some of the local astronomy teachers try to offload too much of the burden of teaching and managing their students onto volunteer astronomers. (At Foothill, that also involved things like spelling r-e-f-r-a-c-t-o-r and r-e-f-l-e-c-t-o-r over and over to students who had gotten through most of a semester of astronomy without ever hearing those terms, but who had to write them down in the dark as part of the assignment. That's just SO fun and rewarding.) A signature doesn't prove anything anyway. It just proves that the student knows how to get someone (not necessarily an astronomer) to sign a form. It's pointless busywork. If a teacher can't find a way to tell whether a student actually did the assignment (look through a telescope at three objects, or whatever), then what was the point of assigning it in the first place? Rob Hawley writes: > The central issue of why they could not support my resolution was that it > does a hard cut-off of a process the school's require without providing an > alternative. It should be the teacher's job to find an alternative, not ours. I'm not a teacher, but coming up with alternatives doesn't seem too difficult: make a sketch (a quick one from memory after the fact, since you can't assume they'll have a chance to sit down and make a detailed sketch at the eyepiece), write a paragraph describing what it looked like, discuss the experience in class, answer some questions about what it looked like (How much of the field did it take up, at what magnification? Was it easy or hard to see it? Where was the telescope pointing in the sky?) That said, it seems mean to punish the students by suddenly imposing this without any warning. I think it's a very good idea to set a blanket "no signing" rule, but if SJAA does that, we should notify the teachers who are requiring these forms, so they don't penalize students for not getting signatures. ...Akkana (Who is glad I don't have to spell c-a-t-a-d-i-o-p-t-r-i-c for the students coming to look through Foothill's new telescope) From robhawley at earthlink.net Sun Dec 3 12:26:15 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Sun Dec 3 12:26:20 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <20061203183122.GA19354@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> Since you missed the full discussion this is more of what was said. We all felt that having students fill out detailed forms in the dark was not workable. What's more it made the focus of the students filling out the form rather than actually learning something by looking through the telescope. Gary felt one teacher was particularly an issue. Gary had tried to contact him to negotiate a better solution, but the teacher blew him off. Gary is going to contact the teacher again (and others we know about) and let them know of this new policy. Hopefully that will allow us to get something that works. There was a consensus on the board that observers should have pre-printed sheets with the standard info on their scopes. (This did not make it into the minutes since we did not actually vote on that). That would reduce the repetitive questions. I plan to also have preprinted sheets on several objects I intend to look at and will hand those out in lieu of signing or answering the questions on the form. I will only give them to students that actually look at the object and I may ask them some questions before giving out the form. We will not enforce the "no signature" policy. Almost half of the board objected in the absence of an alternative. Rob Hawley From wb6yru at aenet.net Sun Dec 3 18:47:16 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Sun Dec 3 18:46:23 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] December 2 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes In-Reply-To: <002a01c716ee$b3e7aa00$0300a8c0@robathome> References: <002a01c716ee$b3e7aa00$0300a8c0@robathome> Message-ID: <45738C34.6030700@aenet.net> Rob Hawley wrote: >>By the way, I noticed that the board members who voted >>against this policy almost never go to the school star >>parties and have very limited experience with those forms. > > > Not true > > Mike and Rich are regulars at Houge. The forms are a problem there also. Read that again--I said *SCHOOL* star parties. (And I don't recall seeing Lee at either one, he voted against it too.) The form problem at Houge absolutely pales in comparison to what happens at a school star party. At Houge you'll get one or two now and then. At a school it's a constant stream. Have you seen celebrities getting mobbed by fans asking for autographs? Now, imagine trying to do a star party like that. You have to understand, the school star parties are far more intense than the Houge star parties. We almost never have folks waiting in line at Houge. We almost never have a lack of lines at schools. It's not unusual to have 20 or 30 people waiting. It's hard enough to do much explaining and describing under those conditions. But if paperwork is added to the mix, then that's almost all you do. > The central issue of why they could not support my resolution was that it > does a hard cut-off of a process the school's require without providing an > alternative. Perhaps. But if they actually went through it a few times, I think they'd feel differently. Jim probably would have put the breaks on paperwork himself long ago, but he's too nice of a guy. Gary From craigus at rocketmail.com Sun Dec 3 19:50:55 2006 From: craigus at rocketmail.com (Craig Scull) Date: Sun Dec 3 19:51:00 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms Message-ID: <20061204035055.59745.qmail@web54515.mail.yahoo.com> >A signature doesn't prove anything anyway. It just proves that the student knows how to get someone (not necessarily an astronomer) to sign a form. It's pointless busywork. I would have to agree. When I was teaching ("way back when") I would not have created such a shallow assignment. Your suggestions below about the "content" of the experience seem like a better solution. >It should be the teacher's job to find an alternative, not ours. I'm not a teacher, but coming up with alternatives doesn't seem too difficult: make a sketch (a quick one from memory after the fact, since you can't assume they'll have a chance to sit down and make a detailed sketch at the eyepiece), write a paragraph describing what it looked like, discuss the experience in class, answer some questions about what it looked like (How much of the field did it take up, at what magnification? Was it easy or hard to see it? Where was the telescope pointing in the sky?) These are all VERY good suggestions and I would recommend that these accompany a no signature statement so that rather than looking negative we are perceived as being constructive, which is our true intention after all. Craig ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20061203/c8152ff4/attachment.html From craigus at rocketmail.com Sun Dec 3 19:54:16 2006 From: craigus at rocketmail.com (Craig Scull) Date: Sun Dec 3 19:54:19 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] December 2 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes Message-ID: <20061204035417.11399.qmail@web54513.mail.yahoo.com> >Just to be clear: The following policy applies to all our public and school star parties, not just at Houge Park. Thanks, I will change the heading and call out Houge Park by name, like this... ------------------------------------- Star Parties Report ------------------------------------- Recent Houge Park parties were clouded out for the most part though people still showed up. There has been an ongoing problem with "paperwork" being required at school star parties in particular, in the form of signature...... Craig ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Mitchell To: Business list for SJAA board of directors and members Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2006 12:54:46 AM Subject: Re: [SJAABoard] December 2 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes Craig Scull wrote: > ========================================================== > December 2, 2006 - SJAA Board Meeting Minutes - Craig Scull > ========================================================== Wow, Craig, that was fast. :) Just to be clear: The following policy applies to all our public and school star parties, not just at Houge Park. > ------------------------------------- > Houge Park > ------------------------------------- > Recent parties were clouded out for the most part though people still showed > up. There has been an ongoing problem with "paperwork" being required, in > the form of signature or other information having to be provided by the > volunteer astronomers. > > The problem breaks down into the following parts: > 1) logistic problems of signing a form in the dark and associated nuisances > of white lights, cell phone lights > 2) some percentage (up to 25% at one site) of students who are more interested > in getting their form signed than looking at objects That should be 80% to 90%, not 25%. Up to 25% at one site don't even bother to look through the telescope, they had to be talked into it. And of those, a few resented being made to look, it got in the way of completing the forms. (That gets old real fast.) > 3) volunteers' educational conversation about astronomy/objects that is > interrupted by students who want to get their form signed > 4) the loss of "observing" time and frustration of interruptions due to all > of the above > > Rob passed a motion that the current system is unworkable and that we would > not participate in filling out forms. The motion was seconded by Gary. > 5 Voted in favor. 3 Voted against. It was discussed that there may be a > better alternatives to meeting the needs of the teachers, such as having > astronomers hand out sheets with information about the objects they were > showing, or providing a sticker. Rob made the motion, he didn't pass it. By the way, I noticed that the board members who voted against this policy almost never go to the school star parties and have very limited experience with those forms. Gary _______________________________________________ SJAABoard mailing list SJAABoard@sjaa.net http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20061203/88231cbe/attachment.html From wb6yru at aenet.net Mon Dec 4 00:09:09 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Mon Dec 4 00:08:50 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> Message-ID: <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> Rob Hawley wrote: > Since you missed the full discussion this is more of what was said. > > We all felt that having students fill out detailed forms in the dark was not > workable. What's more it made the focus of the students filling out the form > rather than actually learning something by looking through the telescope. > > Gary felt one teacher was particularly an issue. Gary had tried to contact > him to negotiate a better solution, but the teacher blew him off. Gary is > going to contact the teacher again (and others we know about) and let them > know of this new policy. Hopefully that will allow us to get something that > works. That would be Ben at West Valley. Jim mentioned it to him as well. He pretty much blew us all off. I stopped going. Ben noticed (according to Jim). Jim recently talked me into writing to Ben about it and Ben seems to be taking more notice now. Once he hears about this policy, hopefully he'll realize it isn't just me. > There was a consensus on the board that observers should have pre-printed > sheets with the standard info on their scopes. I don't know if I'd call it a consensus, more like a brainstorming session to come up with alternatives in an attempt to make the policy seem less harsh. > (This did not make it into > the minutes since we did not actually vote on that). That would reduce the > repetitive questions. I plan to also have preprinted sheets on several > objects I intend to look at and will hand those out in lieu of signing or > answering the questions on the form. I will only give them to students that > actually look at the object and I may ask them some questions before giving > out the form. You'd have to be pretty hard-nosed about it at WVC. :) > We will not enforce the "no signature" policy. Almost half of the board > objected in the absence of an alternative. > > Rob Hawley I have to wonder if many of us are missing an important point here. When we do school or Houge star parties, *we* are doing *them* a favor. We're providing a free service. We're under absolutely no obligation to put up with forms or act like unpaid teacher's aids or come up with alternatives to papers. What would we say if a teacher imposed upon us by handing over a stack of class work and told us to grade them? That's how it feels at the WVC star parties. (The papers are credit.) Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Mon Dec 4 00:11:51 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Mon Dec 4 00:10:55 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <20061203183122.GA19354@shallowsky.com> References: <457290D6.9040907@aenet.net> <002a01c716ee$b3e7aa00$0300a8c0@robathome> <20061203065340.12192.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com> <20061203183122.GA19354@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <4573D847.3050406@aenet.net> Akkana Peck wrote: > Those forms are a pet peeve of mine. It was one of the reasons I > stopped volunteering at the PAS' Foothill College observatory > programs (and I told them so at the time): some of the local > astronomy teachers try to offload too much of the burden of > teaching and managing their students onto volunteer astronomers. That seems to be what's going on with the West Valley teacher. As with you, the forms are why I stop going there. At first I just grimly put up with it. However, I've reached my limit and this is now a pet peeve of mine now too. > (At Foothill, that also involved things like spelling > r-e-f-r-a-c-t-o-r and r-e-f-l-e-c-t-o-r over and over to > students who had gotten through most of a semester of astronomy > without ever hearing those terms, but who had to write them down in > the dark as part of the assignment. That's just SO fun and rewarding.) Many of the astronomy students at West Valley College don't know how to spell Newton, (as in Newtonian telescope). Evidently they've never even heard of him! > A signature doesn't prove anything anyway. It just proves that > the student knows how to get someone (not necessarily an astronomer) > to sign a form. It's pointless busywork. That's more important than looking through the scope for some of them. Some think nothing of butting in and interrupting to get it. > If a teacher can't find a way to tell whether a student actually > did the assignment (look through a telescope at three objects, or > whatever), then what was the point of assigning it in the first place? That's not the assignment in most cases. They want the name of the scope, its focal length, how I got interested in astronomy, and other similar really important tidbits... and a signature--with bright lights of course, the better to see the form. :/ > > Rob Hawley writes: > >>The central issue of why they could not support my resolution was that it >>does a hard cut-off of a process the school's require without providing an >>alternative. > > > It should be the teacher's job to find an alternative, not ours. I wish you were at the board meeting. > I'm not a teacher, but coming up with alternatives doesn't seem too > difficult: make a sketch (a quick one from memory after the fact, > since you can't assume they'll have a chance to sit down and make a > detailed sketch at the eyepiece), write a paragraph describing what > it looked like, discuss the experience in class, answer some > questions about what it looked like (How much of the field did it > take up, at what magnification? Was it easy or hard to see it? > Where was the telescope pointing in the sky?) > > That said, it seems mean to punish the students by suddenly imposing > this without any warning. That's why I reluctantly put up with it when they show up at Houge. It's not their idea. > I think it's a very good idea to set a > blanket "no signing" rule, but if SJAA does that, we should notify > the teachers who are requiring these forms, so they don't penalize > students for not getting signatures. I've already encouraged Jim to spread the word to the schools who tend to have forms, and the star party remailer. > ...Akkana > (Who is glad I don't have to spell c-a-t-a-d-i-o-p-t-r-i-c for the > students coming to look through Foothill's new telescope) :) Gary From mark.wagner at resource-intl.com Mon Dec 4 07:10:16 2006 From: mark.wagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Mon Dec 4 07:10:34 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> Message-ID: <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> Gary Mitchell wrote: >> There was a consensus on the board that observers should have >> pre-printed sheets with the standard info on their scopes. I haven't read every word on this topic, so I'll ask. It sounds like there is nothing decided yet by the board. A consensus, but no vote. Correct? If there is or will be a "pre-printed sheet" approach implemented, would it be for just the school star parties, or Houge Park as well? If the sheets only contain info on the scopes, how do you propose preventing the use of light sources (like cell phones) for writing about the objects viewed through the scopes? Thanks, Mark From robhawley at earthlink.net Mon Dec 4 07:37:33 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Mon Dec 4 07:37:45 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> Message-ID: <009f01c717ba$1e7d9110$0300a8c0@robathome> A vote that it was the boards policy to not sign forms narrowly passed. No other measure was voted on. The school star parties are run by Jim, Gary, and Gordon. If the issue was with school parties then they are empowered to fix it. We should have not taken the board's time. I believe this is also serious at Houge. Rob Hawley \ From mark.wagner at resource-intl.com Mon Dec 4 08:53:46 2006 From: mark.wagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Mon Dec 4 08:53:42 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <009f01c717ba$1e7d9110$0300a8c0@robathome> References: <009f01c717ba$1e7d9110$0300a8c0@robathome> Message-ID: <4574529A.6070004@resource-intl.com> Rob Hawley wrote: > A vote that it was the boards policy to not sign forms narrowly passed. No > other measure was voted on. > Thanks Rob. That doesn't say that the policy is limited to school star parties. Is that the case? > The school star parties are run by Jim, Gary, and Gordon. If the issue was > with school parties then they are empowered to fix it. We should have not > taken the board's time. I believe this is also serious at Houge. > But there's no change at Houge, correct? From LeeBizz at aol.com Mon Dec 4 10:06:45 2006 From: LeeBizz at aol.com (LeeBizz@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 4 10:06:57 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms Message-ID: <51b.b06f524.32a5bdb5@aol.com> Hi all, Gary has caused me to rethink a position of mine on a matter discussed at our last meeting. My experience with the students' forms has been exclusively at Houge Park star parties, where they are only a mild nuisance. When confroned with them at Houge, I cheerfully obliged and signed them. At school star parties where signing the forms becomes so intrusive as to become the main thrust of the student's visit, I too would agree it is bad policy. If confronted with the problem again at the board meeting I would abstain from voting, as I haven't been to one of the school/PAS star parties. However, I would favor finding an alternative which would satisfy all concerned. Lee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20061204/e1cd83de/attachment.html From robhawley at earthlink.net Mon Dec 4 10:44:42 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Mon Dec 4 10:44:48 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <4574529A.6070004@resource-intl.com> Message-ID: <000901c717d4$44093c30$0300a8c0@robathome> It was my impression when I offered the resolution that it ONLY applied to Houge and other full club star parties. If I thought that we were discussing the operation of school star parties I would have requested the participants to work out something off line and report to the board. This is only advisory. You are free to ignore it. Both board members Mike and Rich indicated they intended to do so. Rob Hawley From mark.wagner at resource-intl.com Mon Dec 4 11:23:47 2006 From: mark.wagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Mon Dec 4 11:23:42 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Gergory Award Message-ID: <457475C3.2040409@resource-intl.com> I've always thought this was a fine way of recognizing local individuals who have been standouts in forwarding amateur astronomy. I am quite surprised that the last winner was in 2000. There have been several individuals (members and non-members) worthy of such recognition since the last "bestowal". I'd like to see the SJAA devote some time revitalizing this honor and reestablishing it as a (more) regular award. I'll nominate the best and most obvious person for the next award in order to kick things off: Jim Van Nuland. We all know that Jim served on the board and as secretary longer than any SJAA member in the club's history (I feel pretty safe in that assumption). He has been a backbone to the annual SJAA swap meet, a fixture at Houge Park and prior location in-town public star parties for years. And, his continued dedication to brining astronomy to school students from elementary to high school (and college) level is undeniable, and to me, astonishing. If you look at the past award winners, you'd be hard pressed to name one more deserving than Jim. Here's the list of award winner: http://www.sjaa.net/ga.html Mark From mark.wagner at resource-intl.com Mon Dec 4 11:57:13 2006 From: mark.wagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Mon Dec 4 11:56:57 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Gergory Award Message-ID: <45747D99.3010709@resource-intl.com> Heh heh.... I see now that JVN was awarded in 1984. I suggest the rules be changed to award him again! Mark ======================== I've always thought this was a fine way of recognizing local individuals who have been standouts in forwarding amateur astronomy. I am quite surprised that the last winner was in 2000. There have been several individuals (members and non-members) worthy of such recognition since the last "bestowal". I'd like to see the SJAA devote some time revitalizing this honor and reestablishing it as a (more) regular award. I'll nominate the best and most obvious person for the next award in order to kick things off: Jim Van Nuland. We all know that Jim served on the board and as secretary longer than any SJAA member in the club's history (I feel pretty safe in that assumption). He has been a backbone to the annual SJAA swap meet, a fixture at Houge Park and prior location in-town public star parties for years. And, his continued dedication to brining astronomy to school students from elementary to high school (and college) level is undeniable, and to me, astonishing. If you look at the past award winners, you'd be hard pressed to name one more deserving than Jim. Here's the list of award winner: http://www.sjaa.net/ga.html Mark From robhawley at earthlink.net Mon Dec 4 12:30:46 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Mon Dec 4 12:30:47 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Modifications to new auction program Message-ID: <001001c717e3$14a45ec0$0300a8c0@robathome> Saturday night I agreed to add a feature to the new auction program that will manually specify the actual donation for an item overriding all previous configurations. Concern was expressed that some bidders may have "sticker shock" when presented with the checkout receipt. While the program will provide for the feature, actually making use of it during the auction will require the board define a clear and fair policy on its use. After all, as I expressed during the discussion, it effectively means someone is changing their pledge after the event. The new program provides a variety of ways that someone could specify the donation. We may not wish to expose all of these to the bidders, but they remain as options that could be used. a) Donating the item to SJAA and SJAA attempting to sell it b) Donating a percentage of the sale specified in increments of 1% with no limit c) Donating the first xx dollars of the sale to SJAA and then keeping the rest d) Donating a percentage (1% increments) with a configurable cap of the max donation Given the flexibility above under what grounds should we honor a request to change the donation at the end of the auction? Three examples that have come up in the past are: 1) A bidder bids on his own merchandise and then objects to paying the donation. We already discussed this point after the 2005 auction. We decided at that time that was a purchase subject to the donation. That is fine with me. I would prefer just banning the practice and returning all of the unsold merchandise to anyone attempting it. 2) A certain large bidder lowers the price of an item and then objects to paying the donation. I would argue that given the flexibility of specifying the donation someone has to be incredibly bad at math not to understand the outcome. I would also argue that is not fair to the rest of the bidders. 3) People object to paying any donation at all and sell the item independent of the auction. That is what "voluntary" means. Either they want to support SJAA or they don't. So the change is going in the program. Its actual use will depend on the board providing a fair policy for its use. I would also be in favor of offering all of the fully donated (or large max donations) items first (when there was the highest interest) and all of the items that had less than 10% donation at the end of the auction. Rob Hawley From north at znet.com Mon Dec 4 15:48:59 2006 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Mon Dec 4 15:49:09 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Gergory Award In-Reply-To: <45747D99.3010709@resource-intl.com> References: <45747D99.3010709@resource-intl.com> Message-ID: Mark Wagner wrote: > Heh heh.... I see now that JVN was awarded in 1984. Yeah, and I was just going to send an email acknowledging that though I could not think of anyone on that list more deserving, I could think of someone equally as deserving ... but I was too slow! Dave From areopagus125 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 4 15:49:35 2006 From: areopagus125 at yahoo.com (David Smith) Date: Mon Dec 4 15:49:39 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Modifications to new auction program Message-ID: <20061204234935.17402.qmail@web42407.mail.scd.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- I would also be in favor of offering all of the fully donated (or large max donations) items first (when there was the highest interest) and all of the items that had less than 10% donation at the end of the auction. Rob Hawley That sounds reasonable. -- David ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com From areopagus125 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 4 15:56:55 2006 From: areopagus125 at yahoo.com (David Smith) Date: Mon Dec 4 15:57:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms Message-ID: <20061204235655.41348.qmail@web42409.mail.scd.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Mitchell > There was a consensus on the board that observers should have pre-printed > sheets with the standard info on their scopes. I don't know if I'd call it a consensus, more like a brainstorming session to come up with alternatives in an attempt to make the policy seem less harsh. ----- I don't think pre-printed sheets should be demanded of unpaid volunteers. If they want to do it, fine. -- David ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From jvn at svpal.org Mon Dec 4 15:59:38 2006 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Mon Dec 4 16:03:55 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Modifications to new auction program References: <20061204234935.17402.qmail@web42407.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4574B66A.2F35@svpal.org> David Smith wrote: > > ----- Original Message ---- > > I would also be in favor of offering all of the fully donated (or > large max donations) items first (when there was the highest interest) > and all of the items that had less than 10% donation at the end of the > auction. > > Rob Hawley > > That sounds reasonable. > -- David I agree, and it's a SMOP to have the program call them up in order. But that'd mean a lot of frantic searching among the tables. And the auctioneers sometimes move to or from various kinds of objects, as they sense the interest in what he's presenting. -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site SMOP: Simple matter of programming. An ironic term. From robhawley at earthlink.net Mon Dec 4 16:39:12 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Mon Dec 4 16:39:23 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Modifications to new auction program In-Reply-To: <4574B66A.2F35@svpal.org> Message-ID: <001601c71805$c954f600$0300a8c0@robathome> I would handle it much more simply. Create a new report that prints out a list of the "priority" items and "differed items". I would then hand it to the auctioneer. He could easily find the priority items by number and description and know to pass over the "differed" items. Less than 1 hour work. BTW in the years I have looked at the big ticket items are almost never fully donated. Rob Hawley From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Dec 5 02:10:30 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Tue Dec 5 02:09:45 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <009f01c717ba$1e7d9110$0300a8c0@robathome> References: <009f01c717ba$1e7d9110$0300a8c0@robathome> Message-ID: <45754596.5040807@aenet.net> Rob Hawley wrote: > A vote that it was the boards policy to not sign forms narrowly passed. No > other measure was voted on. The motion was: "... that we would not participate in filling out forms." The problem is the forms, not just signing. > The school star parties are run by Jim, Gary, and Gordon. If the issue was > with school parties then they are empowered to fix it. We should have not > taken the board's time. Technically, yes, but it's not that simple. Jim is the one running the program. It strains his limits just to ask that the outside lights be turned off. Making a policy against forms is asking too much of him. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Dec 5 02:11:21 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Tue Dec 5 02:10:21 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> Message-ID: <457545C9.9000803@aenet.net> Mark Wagner wrote: > Gary Mitchell wrote: > > >>>There was a consensus on the board that observers should have >>>pre-printed sheets with the standard info on their scopes. > > > I haven't read every word on this topic, so I'll ask. > > It sounds like there is nothing decided yet by the board. A consensus, but > no vote. Correct? The policy we voted in was that we would not participate in filling out forms at star parties. This wasn't included in the vote, but the consensus was that no action would be taken if some astronomers participated anyway. So it's not that hard-nosed of a policy. It's mainly there to give us something official to fall back on and to impress upon the teachers that these forms are a problem. > If there is or will be a "pre-printed sheet" approach implemented, would > it be for just the school star parties, or Houge Park as well? > > If the sheets only contain info on the scopes, how do you propose > preventing the use of light sources (like cell phones) for writing about > the objects viewed through the scopes? I mentioned that the forms we see ask a couple of questions about the scope. Someone suggested we could have that info pre-printed and just hand it to the students, and thereby avoid at least that much of the questioning. It quickly expanded to include whatever info you want. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Dec 5 02:28:55 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Tue Dec 5 02:27:57 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Gergory Award In-Reply-To: <45747D99.3010709@resource-intl.com> References: <45747D99.3010709@resource-intl.com> Message-ID: <457549E7.3050103@aenet.net> Mark Wagner wrote: > > > Heh heh.... I see now that JVN was awarded in 1984. > > I suggest the rules be changed to award him again! > > Mark I wouldn't have a problem with that. Hollywood gives out Oscars and Emmies more than once to the same person, why can't we. Gary > > > > > ======================== > > > I've always thought this was a fine way of recognizing local individuals > who have been standouts in forwarding amateur astronomy. I am quite > surprised that the last winner was in 2000. There have been several > individuals (members and non-members) worthy of such recognition since > the last "bestowal". > > I'd like to see the SJAA devote some time revitalizing this honor and > reestablishing it as a (more) regular award. > > I'll nominate the best and most obvious person for the next award in > order to kick things off: > > Jim Van Nuland. > > We all know that Jim served on the board and as secretary longer than > any SJAA member in the club's history (I feel pretty safe in that > assumption). He has been a backbone to the annual SJAA swap meet, a > fixture at Houge Park and prior location in-town public star parties for > years. And, his continued dedication to brining astronomy to school > students from elementary to high school (and college) level is > undeniable, and to me, astonishing. > > If you look at the past award winners, you'd be hard pressed to name one > more deserving than Jim. Here's the list of award winner: > > http://www.sjaa.net/ga.html > > Mark > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Dec 5 06:39:26 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Tue Dec 5 06:38:31 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Modifications to new auction program In-Reply-To: <001001c717e3$14a45ec0$0300a8c0@robathome> References: <001001c717e3$14a45ec0$0300a8c0@robathome> Message-ID: <4575849E.7060400@aenet.net> Rob Hawley wrote: > Saturday night I agreed to add a feature to the new auction program that > will manually specify the actual donation for an item overriding all > previous configurations. Concern was expressed that some bidders may have > "sticker shock" when presented with the checkout receipt. Most everyone already knows going in about the ten percent deal. It's not a complicated calculation. How much of shock can it be? If it's a costly item, they may not want to pay that much, but that's a different issue. The only other option I can think of is to suggest a flat per-item fee... um, I mean donation. > The new program provides a variety of ways that someone could specify the > donation. We may not wish to expose all of these to the bidders, but they > remain as options that could be used. > > a) Donating the item to SJAA and SJAA attempting to sell it > > b) Donating a percentage of the sale specified in increments of 1% > with no limit > > c) Donating the first xx dollars of the sale to SJAA and then keeping > the rest That would be the flat-fee option. > d) Donating a percentage (1% increments) with a configurable cap of > the max donation > > Given the flexibility above under what grounds should we honor a request to > change the donation at the end of the auction? Ultimately, don't we have to? Otherwise it wouldn't be a donation. > Three examples that have > come up in the past are: > > 1) A bidder bids on his own merchandise and then objects to paying > the donation. We already discussed this point after the 2005 auction. We > decided at that time that was a purchase subject to the donation. That is > fine with me. I would prefer just banning the practice and returning all of > the unsold merchandise to anyone attempting it. I for one have no sympathy at all for someone who does that. That's a sock puppet. (Do you know about that?) The practice should be banned. If they do it anyway and win the item, screw 'em, they have to pay the ten percent (or whatever). > 2) A certain large bidder lowers the price of an item and then > objects to paying the donation. I would argue that given the flexibility of > specifying the donation someone has to be incredibly bad at math not to > understand the outcome. I would also argue that is not fair to the rest of > the bidders. I don't follow that one. Do you mean the seller? What does lowering the price have to do with balking at the donation? > 3) People object to paying any donation at all and sell the item > independent of the auction. That is what "voluntary" means. Either they > want to support SJAA or they don't. Yeah, well... If we're going to say the "commission" is a voluntary donation, that's always going to be a possibility. I agree with Mike, we should act like it's a flat ten percent commission, but in a tiny voice (fine print) admit that it's a voluntary donation. After all, we're doing it this way just so *they* can write it off their taxes. > I would also be in favor of offering all of the fully donated (or large max > donations) items first (when there was the highest interest) and all of the > items that had less than 10% donation at the end of the auction. I'm not opposed to us assigning the order (if we want to add to our workload), but we've always left that up to the auctioneer. That's worked pretty well, hasn't it? Gary From robhawley at earthlink.net Tue Dec 5 07:24:45 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Tue Dec 5 07:24:26 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Modifications to new auction program In-Reply-To: <4575849E.7060400@aenet.net> Message-ID: <002401c71881$7ede8ab0$0300a8c0@robathome> > Most everyone already knows going in about the ten percent deal. > It's not a complicated calculation. How much of shock can it be? > > If it's a costly item, they may not want to pay that much, > but that's a different issue. > > The only other option I can think of is to suggest a flat > per-item fee... um, I mean donation. > The original program is 10% to a maximum of $50. Stated another way everything that sells for over $500 is treated as a flat fee. Thus all of the big stuff from that large seller that the seller sold (instead of donated) was $50 per item. The program is set to default to the two current conditions ( 100% or 10%/$50). I am fine with keeping that as the default we tell people. We have the flexibility to do just about any approach you can reasonably think of. So, for example, if I would like to sell my SCT and give SJAA half of the proceeds we can do that. Rob Hawley From akkana at shallowsky.com Tue Dec 5 10:32:45 2006 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana Peck) Date: Tue Dec 5 10:32:47 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <457545C9.9000803@aenet.net> References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <457545C9.9000803@aenet.net> Message-ID: <20061205183245.GA25716@shallowsky.com> Gary Mitchell writes: > The policy we voted in was that we would not participate in filling > out forms at star parties. > > This wasn't included in the vote, but the consensus was that no > action would be taken if some astronomers participated anyway. I doubt anyone would want to prevent individual astronomers from signing if they so choose. But without a no-signing policy, it makes anyone who doesn't like the forms play the bad guy: "Yes, you looked at a bunch of objects, yes, I know you need credit, but I'm not going to sign your form because I'm MEAN. Go start all over at someone else's scope." If it's the group's policy, then no one feels pressured to spend their time signing forms and it's up to the instructor to come up with some other approach. As an alternative to pre-printed handouts (which cost money and don't scale well for people who have a lot of different scopes), how about taping a single sheet onto the scope with information about its size and type? It's interesting that one of the prime offenders was West Valley, since they were the ones begging the amateur astronomy community a few months ago for volunteer tutors for their program. Gary said it best: when we do school star parties, we're the ones doing them a favor. So they ought not to make demands on the volunteers that make our job unpleasant, especially if they want people to volunteer for even more programs. ...Akkana From mark.wagner at resource-intl.com Tue Dec 5 10:56:43 2006 From: mark.wagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Tue Dec 5 10:56:29 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <20061205183245.GA25716@shallowsky.com> References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <457545C9.9000803@aenet.net> <20061205183245.GA25716@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <4575C0EB.3090003@resource-intl.com> Akkana Peck wrote: > It's interesting that one of the prime offenders was West Valley I think that is *the* offender. I thought this entire "decision" by the board sounded confused. It appeared to me to be aimed at Hogue Park. I understand about the problem at WVC, but am concerned that the board is letting "one bad apple" ruin the bunch. Wouldn't it be simpler to inform the instructor that his methods will result in non-support from the SJAA, rather than implement a policy that is allowed to be ignored? Does the board really want begin instituting policies that they know they will allow to be ignored? Where will that end? How confusing do you think that will be? I also don't like the idea of, if it came to this, club members (and non-members) coming to Houge Park for the in-town public star party, and refusing to participate in an astronomy student's assignment by declining to sign a piece of paper. True, there is no proof that it is *our* signature, but the student is supposed to be on the honor system. What gets "set up" with a no-signing policy that can be ignored if so chosen is that some members of the club, or astronomy community, are looked at as curmudgeons, or A-H's, especially in comparison to those who act politely and in a friendly manner when asked for participation in the school assignment. Heck, its not like were out at a dark site hunting down obscure objects on the one prime/perfect night of the year! Its an in-town event, or a *school* event. So long as the task does not become to onerous, why not help? My suggestion is to lay the law down to the WVC instructor, and leave the the club's interaction with the rest of the world alone. Mark From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Dec 5 17:17:44 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Tue Dec 5 17:16:45 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <4575C0EB.3090003@resource-intl.com> References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <457545C9.9000803@aenet.net> <20061205183245.GA25716@shallowsky.com> <4575C0EB.3090003@resource-intl.com> Message-ID: <45761A38.6070201@aenet.net> Mark Wagner wrote: > Akkana Peck wrote: > >> It's interesting that one of the prime offenders was West Valley > > I think that is *the* offender. > > I thought this entire "decision" by the board sounded confused. It > appeared to me to be aimed at Hogue Park. That might have been partially my fault. I seem to be the one whose feathers are ruffled the most, but it was Rob who spearheaded the motion. The point being that Rob very rarely attends the school star parties and thus doesn't really see the bulk of the issue. He seemed to be motivated by the very few forms we saw at Houge. Heh, I'd like to see him at WVC. :) > I understand about the problem at WVC, but am concerned that the board > is letting "one bad apple" ruin the bunch. WVC isn't the only one, but they're the worst. There wouldn't be any "ruining of the bunch." All the formless schools would never notice. > Wouldn't it be simpler to > inform the instructor that his methods will result in non-support from > the SJAA, rather than implement a policy that is allowed to be ignored? > Does the board really want begin instituting policies that they know > they will allow to be ignored? Where will that end? How confusing do > you think that will be? I wasn't happy about that myself, but there was a lot of concern (mostly from those who don't go to school star parties) about being too hard-nosed. So, we compromised. The suggestions about having pre-printed forms etc. was an additional attempt at compromise. When we vote on things, it's usually unanimous. This passed 5 to 3. > What gets "set up" with a no-signing policy that can be ignored if so > chosen is that some members of the club, or astronomy community, are > looked at as curmudgeons, or A-H's, especially in comparison to those > who act politely and in a friendly manner when asked for participation > in the school assignment. That exactly was my motivation for a policy. We are all acting on our own. I don't want to stand out as a curmudgeon. So, when faced with a form by a student, I'm too much like Jim and just grimly put up with it. (It's not the student's fault.) My only other option was to stop going, which I did. That's saying a lot for me, I attend all the school star parties I can. (WVC has a dark sky too.) > Heck, its not like were out at a dark site > hunting down obscure objects on the one prime/perfect night of the > year! Its an in-town event, or a *school* event. So long as the task > does not become to onerous, why not help? But it *does* become onerous! That's the whole point. 90 percent of what we end up doing is answer the same dumb questions and help them fill in the form. It's obvious the kids don't get anything out of it--especially younger kids (Jr high). And it's oh so much fun for us. And some of the questions are soooo stupid... From WVC: What's the name of your scope? Who's Newton? Can you spell that? From some elementary/Jr. High: How did you get interested in astronomy? I can't bring myself to bark out John Dobson's answer to an elementary student, but I think it: "I was BORN, what's your problem!" :) > My suggestion is to lay the law down to the WVC instructor, and leave > the the club's interaction with the rest of the world alone. Whose law? And who lays it down? Gary From rnapo at znet.com Tue Dec 5 17:27:37 2006 From: rnapo at znet.com (Rich N) Date: Tue Dec 5 17:27:50 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome><4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net><1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com><457545C9.9000803@aenet.net> <20061205183245.GA25716@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <011e01c718d5$b72367c0$9ef61345@180edt> The sheet with scope info is a good idea. Maybe put it in one of those flexible clear plastic things that holds a sheet off paper in a binder? Rich -snip > > As an alternative to pre-printed handouts (which cost money and > don't scale well for people who have a lot of different scopes), > how about taping a single sheet onto the scope with information > about its size and type? > > It's interesting that one of the prime offenders was West Valley, > since they were the ones begging the amateur astronomy community > a few months ago for volunteer tutors for their program. > Gary said it best: when we do school star parties, we're the ones > doing them a favor. So they ought not to make demands on the > volunteers that make our job unpleasant, especially if they want > people to volunteer for even more programs. > > ...Akkana > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > From jvn at svpal.org Tue Dec 5 17:33:24 2006 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Tue Dec 5 17:43:42 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Modifications to new auction program References: <001001c717e3$14a45ec0$0300a8c0@robathome> <4575849E.7060400@aenet.net> Message-ID: <45761DE4.4600@svpal.org> > Rob Hawley wrote: > > Three examples that have > > come up in the past are: > > > > 1) A bidder bids on his own merchandise and then objects to paying > > the donation. We already discussed this point after the 2005 > > auction. We decided at that time that was a purchase subject > > to the donation. I recall something like that, but it must have been the 2004 auction, as I was at the computer. According to the seller, he had failed to provide a minimum bid, and didn't want to sell at a trivial price. I "unsold" the items, then did the checkout. He had not objected to paying; if memory serves, he was willing to pay the commission but was not happy about it. I felt (and feel) that we do not want to be hard-nosed with a new seller, but others said that he'd been here before, and the form is clear about a minimum. I felt that I probably should have found the guy and asked him if he intended to have a zero minimum (he had not written anything in the minimum field). As it was, I had entered the zeroes. Or perhaps there was another case during the 2005 auction (Rob running the original program)? > > 3) People object to paying any donation at all and sell the item > > independent of the auction. That is what "voluntary" means. Either > > they want to support SJAA or they don't. Rather shabby, and it happened often enough to cause the $50 cap to be invented. For someone to enter and sell at the auction, but specifying zero donation -- that's seriously cheap, but it fits within the definition of "voluntary donation". I'd tell him to go ahead, but I'd surely not act friendly about it. -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site From mark.wagner at resource-intl.com Tue Dec 5 19:34:06 2006 From: mark.wagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Tue Dec 5 19:34:19 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <45761A38.6070201@aenet.net> References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <457545C9.9000803@aenet.net> <20061205183245.GA25716@shallowsky.com> <4575C0EB.3090003@resource-intl.com> <45761A38.6070201@aenet.net> Message-ID: <1119.67.116.242.55.1165376046.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> Gary Mitchell wrote: > That might have been partially my fault. I seem to be the one whose feathers are ruffled the most, but it was Rob who spearheaded the motion. The point being that Rob very rarely attends the school star parties and thus doesn't really see the bulk of the issue. He seemed to be motivated by the very few forms we saw at Houge. Heh, I'd like to see him at WVC. :) Gary, Your note really clarified what's going on. Seems to me there are two different activities that are getting lumped together here. One is the school star party program. The other is public star parties - Houge Park and possibly Coyote Lake Park. It seems the complaint is really relative to the "crush" of students at places like West Valley College, part of the school star party program. Is also seems to me that Houge Park is not nearly comparable to the school star parties, in terms of students pursuing filled out forms, completed assignements, etc. My experience at Houge Park is that I may get perhaps six students asking questions, then request a signature to "prove" they asked someone at Houge. I'm never really bothered by this, as it provides some additional interaction with the students, where more discussion about school, their class, and astronomy can take place. It is an opportunity. I'd suggest not doing anything to change the dynamic at Houge, it is hardly an imposition, in my opinion. Regarding the school star parties, years ago some of us wanted to take that program in a more formalized direction. The board disagreed and formally appointed Jim Van Nuland "School Star Party Chairman". That put the program squarely under his direction. I and other stopped participating, but the progmam continued, has for many years since remained extremely active, and certainly did not suffer for lack of our participation. My point here is the program *reports* to Jim Van Nuland. If the board has some question about how the school star partiea are run, they really should be dealing with Jim. I don't think it is really appropriate to be making changes to the program without his involvement and approval. Houge Park should not be impacted by a discussion about school star parties, and board level discussions about school star parties should involve the School Star Party Chairman. I hope the board will void their prior action at the next meeting and, if the topic is taken up agian, involve Jim. Mark From jvn at svpal.org Wed Dec 6 01:53:44 2006 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Wed Dec 6 02:19:09 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <457545C9.9000803@aenet.net> <20061205183245.GA25716@shallowsky.com> <4575C0EB.3090003@resource-intl.com> <45761A38.6070201@aenet.net> <1119.67.116.242.55.1165376046.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> Message-ID: <45769328.2C98@svpal.org> Mark Wagner wrote: > Gary, > > Your note really clarified what's going on. Seems to me there are two > different activities that are getting lumped together here. > > One is the school star party program. > > The other is public star parties - Houge Park and possibly Coyote > Lake Park. > > It seems the complaint is really relative to the "crush" of students at > places like West Valley College, part of the school star party program. Mark, you've made several good points, as has Gary. At WVC, many of the kids are not there to observe, but only to get done with the piece of paper, and get away. In addition to the bright cell-phone flashlights, some are rudely interrupting what we're saying about what we're trying to show. It is very discouraging to have a group of four students come up, one glances into the scope and says "Saturn", and the others simply write that down. Then the first asks the usual questions and all write. Then they leave, presumably to do that same at the next scope. I often say that we are paid in OOOHS and AHHHs. At WVC we are poorly paid. Some are interested, but after a look or two, most are standing a little way off chatting, leaving the telescopes idle. I must add that Benjamin was present at the latest event and had the students signing in with him instead of passing out papers. That event (Oct.12) ran considerably better -- the ones who wanted to look were not interrupted by the paper pushers. Mark wrote: > ... I and other stopped > participating, but the program continued, has for many years since > remained extremely active, and certainly did not suffer for lack of our > participation. Mark, you and "other" *do* participate. Since I know that several TACos, especially yourself and Rich, are usually at Houge moony events, I sometimes book a school event on the same evening. I'll pull a couple people away form Houge, but I can do that because you and others are there. Thank you for that, Mark and Rich. > Houge Park should not be impacted by a discussion about school star > parties, Agreed! As has been said, the students are victims of the papers, and it is unfair of us to refuse to sign when they are at Houge Park. Benjamin has discontinued the papers at WVC, but students that can't get to that event are routed to Houge or Foothill College. And then they need the papers. My impression is that the ones that come to Houge seem to be the more interested ones, and therefore it's not as much an imposition to initial the paper for them. That fits with what your experience, I think. At Saratoga High, the students checked in and out with the teacher, so we didn't have paperwork. We've been there just once, and found that students have great interest in what we were showing and saying. The one other "papered" school is Thomas Russell Middle in Milpitas. At the latest event (Apr.5), the students had papers for the first time. It was an experiment. Yes, some of the questions were inane, but the kids were interested in our answers and in what we had in the scopes. Even so, I worried that for some, the paper might have become the activity of the evening, and they'd do less observing. And the cell lights were intrusive. We do not have Russell on the calendar. When he asks, I'll ask about the papers and point out the disadvantages, as has been discussed here. I will make Gary's point that the paper becomes the primary activity, to the detriment of observing. But to bluntly refuse to do the event is utterly counterproductive. Clear Skies! -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site From wb6yru at aenet.net Wed Dec 6 03:55:32 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Wed Dec 6 03:54:43 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <1119.67.116.242.55.1165376046.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <457545C9.9000803@aenet.net> <20061205183245.GA25716@shallowsky.com> <4575C0EB.3090003@resource-intl.com> <45761A38.6070201@aenet.net> <1119.67.116.242.55.1165376046.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> Message-ID: <4576AFB4.30209@aenet.net> Mark Wagner wrote: > Seems to me there are two > different activities that are getting lumped together here. > > One is the school star party program. > > The other is public star parties - Houge Park and possibly Coyote Lake Park. Well, I don't agree. What we see at Houge is just the overflow from the WVC school star party... it's the tip of the very same iceberg. I've never seen any forms at Coyote. > It seems the complaint is really relative to the "crush" of students at > places like West Valley College, part of the school star party program. > > Is also seems to me that Houge Park is not nearly comparable to the school > star parties, in terms of students pursuing filled out forms, completed > assignements, etc. Maybe not in terms of volume, but that's to be expected. I'll admit to being hypersensitized to the problem. So when I see the same forms at Houge, it's like rubbing a raw wound. If Houge is all you've ever seen, then it's just a minor annoyance. We can't very well have a no-form policy for schools, but not at the public star parties. We need to be consistent. > Regarding the school star parties, > My point here is the program *reports* to Jim Van Nuland. > If the board has some question about how the school star partiea are run, > they really should be dealing with Jim. I don't think it is really > appropriate to be making changes to the program without his involvement > and approval. You make a good point that the chairman of a committee should be included where that committee's activities are concerned. On the other hand, this is a policy issue and setting policy is the primary function of a board of directors. This isn't really about how the star parties are being run--it's certainly nothing Jim did nor did he invite this, but rather it's something that's being done to us. We were never consulted by the schools/teachers, we just got the papers shoved in our faces. That being the case, I really don't see anything wrong with the club officially objecting. I don't understand where this resistance is coming from. Would it help the board if we collected some statements from a few of those with a lot of first hand experience? Gary From mark.wagner at resource-intl.com Wed Dec 6 09:15:22 2006 From: mark.wagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Wed Dec 6 09:15:20 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <4576AFB4.30209@aenet.net> References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <457545C9.9000803@aenet.net> <20061205183245.GA25716@shallowsky.com> <4575C0EB.3090003@resource-intl.com> <45761A38.6070201@aenet.net> <1119.67.116.242.55.1165376046.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> <4576AFB4.30209@aenet.net> Message-ID: <4576FAAA.2090902@resource-intl.com> Gary Mitchell wrote: > Well, I don't agree. What we see at Houge is just the overflow from > the WVC school star party... it's the tip of the very same iceberg. It is not *just* WVC. It is Evergreen, San Jose City, and others as well. They are mixed in with non-student attendees, and are just a small percentage of the visitors at Houge. And while I understand our feelings may differ, I do not find it objectionable at Houge. > I've never seen any forms at Coyote. I mention Coyote as it was pointed out to me that it is the only other "public" star party the SJAA has. > I'll admit to being hypersensitized to the problem. So when I see > the same forms at Houge, it's like rubbing a raw wound. If Houge > is all you've ever seen, then it's just a minor annoyance. We all have different tolerances. I don't mind what takes place at Houge. I think perhaps you are right, you may be hypersensitive due to your school star party experiences. It sounds from what JVN wrote that the school star parties are moving away from "signing forms" which could alleviate the problem. Certainly what takes place at Houge is very minor compared to the "frenzy" you describe at WVC (and some other schools). Does it sound like the "problem" is resolving? That's how Jim's reply sounded to me. > We can't very well have a no-form policy for schools, but not at the > public star parties. We need to be consistent. The board can be consistent within the school program, yes. But Houge Park is not a school star party program, otherwise JVN would be in charge of it. To me, it is somewhat like saying "no green lasers at Houge because the SJAA doesn't allow them at CalStar". Two different programs where there may be some attendee overlap. > You make a good point that the chairman of a committee should be > included where that committee's activities are concerned. On the > other hand, this is a policy issue and setting policy is the > primary function of a board of directors. To me, its a matter of whether the board is running the program, or JVN is. Much like what happened recently with the rules for CalStar. It was a matter of whether the board was going to "run" CalStar, or allow Rob to do it. > This isn't really about how the star parties are being run--it's > certainly nothing Jim did nor did he invite this, but rather > it's something that's being done to us. We were never consulted > by the schools/teachers, we just got the papers shoved in our > faces. That being the case, I really don't see anything wrong > with the club officially objecting. Jim has already proposed a solution for the other school that does forms: "We do not have Russell on the calendar. When he asks, I'll ask about the papers and point out the disadvantages, as has been discussed here. I will make Gary's point that the paper becomes the primary activity, to the detriment of observing." Perhaps Jim will consider making that point part of the standard information provided to any school that requests an SJAA school star party. > I don't understand where this resistance is coming from. Would > it help the board if we collected some statements from a few of > those with a lot of first hand experience? I think board action/intervention may not be necessary. I do not want to see rules that are put in place and allowed to be ignored. I also do not want to have to explain to students why I can sign their assignment sheet, but the person next to me refuses to. How would you explain it? I do not want to be "required" to print out forms to bring along with information about my telescope, or (heaven forbid!) what objects I'm looking at. When we participate in a Houge Park event, we are representing our organization, and my preference is that it be done with a kind "yes", especially when the price is so little. Perhaps without schools using forms, the occasional request at Houge to sign someone's homework assignment won't bother you. In all my years attending Houge, I never heard a complaint about signing a homework assignment... so, I don't see a big problem there. Mark From mark.wagner at resource-intl.com Wed Dec 6 12:33:42 2006 From: mark.wagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Wed Dec 6 12:33:38 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] December 2 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes Message-ID: <45772926.9000307@resource-intl.com> This pertains to the school star party forms discussion, but also how the draft minutes were submitted. Craig, look at the SJAA Board Mailing List archives, and how your formatted e-mail displays: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/2006-December/003381.html Can you send unformatted? It is very difficult to read in the archives. I looked at the archives in order to determine what the record shows about the school star party forms discussion and vote. I was surprised to see no discussion whatsoever about it, and no vote about it, in the School Star Parties section of the draft minutes. When I read the draft minutes within the category "Houge Park" I found somewhat detailed minutes about "an ongoing problem with paperwork being required". The way this, and the 5 to 3 vote are reported in the minutes has NO application to the school star party program, but appears to only apply to Houge Park. School star parties are not even mentioned. All it says the vote provided is that the club "would not participate in filling out forms" (presumably at Houge Park). That explained why I found it so confusing. This was supposed to apply principally to the school star parties. I think Gary caught this too. Can this mistake be corrected, and the topic be placed again on the agenda for the next board meeting? Thanks! Mark From rnapo at znet.com Wed Dec 6 12:44:46 2006 From: rnapo at znet.com (Rich N) Date: Wed Dec 6 12:44:52 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Updating the agenda... References: <45772926.9000307@resource-intl.com> Message-ID: <008f01c71977$5e1b7990$57f61345@180edt> I volunteer keep the agenda updated. At least high lighting the points that differ from the usual bullet points. For example, the comments about the loaner scope program usually is about the number of scopes on loan and if any are broken. But, at the last meeting the loaner program part of the agenda also involved finding ways to improve the telescopes we have in the loaner program. Rich From rnapo at znet.com Wed Dec 6 12:50:46 2006 From: rnapo at znet.com (Rich N) Date: Wed Dec 6 12:50:50 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Telescope loaner program References: <45772926.9000307@resource-intl.com> Message-ID: <009201c71978$34872330$57f61345@180edt> At the last board meeting it sounded as Mike thought I wanted each telescope to have 1/10 wave optics. That wasn't the direction I was going in. I am interested in finding ways to make the loaner telescopes easy to use. If a telescope has an big bulky old mount, maybe that mount could be replaced by a good, but used, mount like a Losmandy G11. The G11 should be easier to handle, it would be more like the newer telescopes a member is likely to find available today and a GEM, like the G11, can handle a number of different OTAs. There are a number of different adapters available should they be needed. Rich From craigus at rocketmail.com Wed Dec 6 20:39:25 2006 From: craigus at rocketmail.com (Craig Scull) Date: Wed Dec 6 20:39:32 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes (correction!) Message-ID: <20061207043925.59890.qmail@web54511.mail.yahoo.com> Resending this correction for Mark and anyone else's benefit, as it appears to have been missed. ----- Original Message ---- From: Craig Scull To: Business list for SJAA board of directors and members Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2006 7:54:16 PM Subject: Re: [SJAABoard] December 2 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes >Just to be clear: The following policy applies to all our public and school star parties, not just at Houge Park. Thanks, I will change the heading and call out Houge Park by name, like this... ------------------------------------- Star Parties Report ------------------------------------- Recent Houge Park parties were clouded out for the most part though people still showed up. There has been an ongoing problem with "paperwork" being required at school star parties in particular, in the form of signature...... Craig ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Mitchell To: Business list for SJAA board of directors and members Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2006 12:54:46 AM Subject: Re: [SJAABoard] December 2 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes Craig Scull wrote: > ========================================================== > December 2, 2006 - SJAA Board Meeting Minutes - Craig Scull > ========================================================== Wow, Craig, that was fast. :) Just to be clear: The following policy applies to all our public and school star parties, not just at Houge Park. > ------------------------------------- > Houge Park > ------------------------------------- > Recent parties were clouded out for the most part though people still showed > up. There has been an ongoing problem with "paperwork" being required, in > the form of signature or other information having to be provided by the > volunteer astronomers. > > The problem breaks down into the following parts: > 1) logistic problems of signing a form in the dark and associated nuisances > of white lights, cell phone lights > 2) some percentage (up to 25% at one site) of students who are more interested > in getting their form signed than looking at objects That should be 80% to 90%, not 25%. Up to 25% at one site don't even bother to look through the telescope, they had to be talked into it. And of those, a few resented being made to look, it got in the way of completing the forms. (That gets old real fast.) > 3) volunteers' educational conversation about astronomy/objects that is > interrupted by students who want to get their form signed > 4) the loss of "observing" time and frustration of interruptions due to all > of the above > > Rob passed a motion that the current system is unworkable and that we would > not participate in filling out forms. The motion was seconded by Gary. > 5 Voted in favor. 3 Voted against. It was discussed that there may be a > better alternatives to meeting the needs of the teachers, such as having > astronomers hand out sheets with information about the objects they were > showing, or providing a sticker. Rob made the motion, he didn't pass it. By the way, I noticed that the board members who voted against this policy almost never go to the school star parties and have very limited experience with those forms. Gary _______________________________________________ SJAABoard mailing list SJAABoard@sjaa.net http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20061206/7fde63c7/attachment.html From craigus at rocketmail.com Wed Dec 6 20:40:24 2006 From: craigus at rocketmail.com (Craig Scull) Date: Wed Dec 6 20:40:26 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] December 2 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes Message-ID: <20061207044024.18406.qmail@web54515.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks, Mike pointed that out to me as well and there's a simple solution. I will send mtg notes from now on that wrap at the 55th character (easy to do using NoteTab). Experience has shown this works well. I just hadn't thought to do it here. Craig ----- Original Message ---- From: Mark Wagner To: SJAA Board Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 12:33:42 PM Subject: Re: [SJAABoard] December 2 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes This pertains to the school star party forms discussion, but also how the draft minutes were submitted. Craig, look at the SJAA Board Mailing List archives, and how your formatted e-mail displays: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/2006-December/003381.html Can you send unformatted? It is very difficult to read in the archives. I looked at the archives in order to determine what the record shows about the school star party forms discussion and vote. I was surprised to see no discussion whatsoever about it, and no vote about it, in the School Star Parties section of the draft minutes. When I read the draft minutes within the category "Houge Park" I found somewhat detailed minutes about "an ongoing problem with paperwork being required". The way this, and the 5 to 3 vote are reported in the minutes has NO application to the school star party program, but appears to only apply to Houge Park. School star parties are not even mentioned. All it says the vote provided is that the club "would not participate in filling out forms" (presumably at Houge Park). That explained why I found it so confusing. This was supposed to apply principally to the school star parties. I think Gary caught this too. Can this mistake be corrected, and the topic be placed again on the agenda for the next board meeting? Thanks! Mark _______________________________________________ SJAABoard mailing list SJAABoard@sjaa.net http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20061206/1e2937bb/attachment.html From areopagus125 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 6 23:14:15 2006 From: areopagus125 at yahoo.com (David Smith) Date: Wed Dec 6 23:14:27 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Modifications to new auction program Message-ID: <20061207071415.53677.qmail@web42410.mail.scd.yahoo.com> What are "differed" items? Do you mean deferred items? -- David ----- Original Message ---- From: Rob Hawley To: Business list for SJAA board of directors and members Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 4:39:12 PM Subject: RE: [SJAABoard] Modifications to new auction program I would handle it much more simply. Create a new report that prints out a list of the "priority" items and "differed items". I would then hand it to the auctioneer. He could easily find the priority items by number and description and know to pass over the "differed" items. Less than 1 hour work. BTW in the years I have looked at the big ticket items are almost never fully donated. Rob Hawley _______________________________________________ SJAABoard mailing list SJAABoard@sjaa.net http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Dec 7 00:42:23 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Thu Dec 7 00:41:22 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] December 2 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes In-Reply-To: <45772926.9000307@resource-intl.com> References: <45772926.9000307@resource-intl.com> Message-ID: <4577D3EF.8060906@aenet.net> Mark Wagner wrote: > This pertains to the school star party forms discussion, but also how > the draft minutes were submitted. > > Craig, look at the SJAA Board Mailing List archives, and how your > formatted e-mail displays: > > http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/2006-December/003381.html > > Can you send unformatted? It is very difficult to read in the archives. > > I looked at the archives in order to determine what the record shows > about the school star party forms discussion and vote. I was surprised > to see no discussion whatsoever about it, and no vote about it, in the > School Star Parties section of the draft minutes. > > When I read the draft minutes within the category "Houge Park" I found > somewhat detailed minutes about "an ongoing problem with paperwork being > required". The way this, and the 5 to 3 vote are reported in the > minutes has NO application to the school star party program, but appears > to only apply to Houge Park. School star parties are not even > mentioned. All it says the vote provided is that the club "would not > participate in filling out forms" (presumably at Houge Park). > > That explained why I found it so confusing. This was supposed to apply > principally to the school star parties. I think Gary caught this too. > > Can this mistake be corrected, and the topic be placed again on the > agenda for the next board meeting? It felt like we rushed that topic a bit, and only a few of us were even aware of the problem. That probably had something to do with it. In any case, I've talked about the need for accurate minutes before. This is a good example demonstrating that I wasn't just being pedantic. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Dec 7 00:45:07 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Thu Dec 7 00:44:02 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <4576FAAA.2090902@resource-intl.com> References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <457545C9.9000803@aenet.net> <20061205183245.GA25716@shallowsky.com> <4575C0EB.3090003@resource-intl.com> <45761A38.6070201@aenet.net> <1119.67.116.242.55.1165376046.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> <4576AFB4.30209@aenet.net> <4576FAAA.2090902@resource-intl.com> Message-ID: <4577D493.9000703@aenet.net> Mark Wagner wrote: > It sounds from what JVN wrote that the school star parties are moving > away from "signing forms" which could alleviate the problem. Certainly > what takes place at Houge is very minor compared to the "frenzy" you > describe at WVC (and some other schools). Does it sound like the > "problem" is resolving? That's how Jim's reply sounded to me. Don't count on it. This is something that can pop up from time to time, just like weeds. Jim mentioned Thomas Russell Middle in Milpitas... During one of those "papered" events, I met the teacher responsible for them and we had a little chat. He explained that having some kind of worksheet just seemed like a good idea. It's the sort of thing that can (and does) occur to any teacher who doesn't have much experience with star parties. And this is where the policy comes in. I mentioned to Jim that he needs to add this to the document he sends to teachers giving advice and tips for star parties. The tips include: dress warmly, don't run, no bright flashlights, etc. We need to add: please don't give the kids any paperwork to fill out. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. Is that so horrible? >> We can't very well have a no-form policy for schools, but not at the >> public star parties. We need to be consistent. > > The board can be consistent within the school program, yes. But Houge > Park is not a school star party program, otherwise JVN would be in > charge of it. They're all SJAA events. At similar events, why should we have a policy of no forms at one but not another? I don't understand that at all. > To me, it is somewhat like saying "no green lasers at > Houge because the SJAA doesn't allow them at CalStar". Two different > programs where there may be some attendee overlap. How you can draw that analogy? That's apples and oranges. CalStar is a dark site event for the experts. The public star parties and school star parties are practically the same. The only real difference is whether we go to them or they come to us. By the way, the star party at the Tech museum is considered a school star party too. But it's not a school, so would you advocate a different policy there? > I think board action/intervention may not be necessary. It has come to this because the paperwork is becoming a problem and each one of us is on our own. At club events, it's better that we speak with one voice. > I do not want > to see rules that are put in place and allowed to be ignored. I also do > not want to have to explain to students why I can sign their assignment > sheet, but the person next to me refuses to. How would you explain it? > I do not want to be "required" to print out forms to bring along with > information about my telescope, or (heaven forbid!) what objects I'm > looking at. Now you're talking about a totally different problem, namely: which policy gets put into place. For what it's worth, I agree with your objections. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Dec 7 00:46:26 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Thu Dec 7 00:45:25 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <45769328.2C98@svpal.org> References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <457545C9.9000803@aenet.net> <20061205183245.GA25716@shallowsky.com> <4575C0EB.3090003@resource-intl.com> <45761A38.6070201@aenet.net> <1119.67.116.242.55.1165376046.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> <45769328.2C98@svpal.org> Message-ID: <4577D4E2.2020702@aenet.net> Jim Van Nuland wrote: > As has been said, the students are victims of the papers, and > it is unfair of us to refuse to sign when they are at Houge Park. > But to bluntly refuse to do the event is > utterly counterproductive. I don't know of anyone (with the possible exception of Akkana) who dislikes the paperwork at star parties more than I do. Who said anything about refusing to do an event, bluntly or otherwise? No one is advocating that. The policy of not participating with the paperwork is NOT something we should just suddenly spring on the kids without any warning. It needs to be made clear up front to the teachers who are likely to have paperwork *well* before the star party. The goal is to avoid forms in the first place, certainly not to fight them one on one with the students during the event itself. I'm beginning to understand why there is so much resistance. Some of you apparently are imagining the worst possible case. Look, people, there's no reason at all this fight against the forms as to be an ugly one. Gary From robhawley at earthlink.net Thu Dec 7 05:58:50 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Thu Dec 7 05:58:57 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] December 2 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes In-Reply-To: <20061207044024.18406.qmail@web54515.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002001c71a07$d3708b50$0400a8c0@robathome> A better suggestion is to not send HTML mail to the remailer (or me for that matter unless it contains different fonts). Pipermail will handle the line ends correctly in the HTML it produces for the archives if you do that. For example http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/2006-October/003273.html The original had line breaks only at paragraphs It also eliminates the 200B garbage file that gets sent along if you do send HTML. Rob Hawley From north at znet.com Thu Dec 7 09:06:43 2006 From: north at znet.com (Dave North) Date: Thu Dec 7 09:06:54 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] December 2 , 2006 - Draft SJAA Board Meeting Minutes In-Reply-To: <002001c71a07$d3708b50$0400a8c0@robathome> References: <002001c71a07$d3708b50$0400a8c0@robathome> Message-ID: <21ab12937569496e56dacf5ca5825621@znet.com> Rob Hawley wrote: > A better suggestion is to not send HTML mail You could stop right there and be right on the money! Dave From robhawley at earthlink.net Thu Dec 7 10:20:00 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Thu Dec 7 10:19:59 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Process for next mailing Message-ID: <003801c71a2c$4f7a5950$0400a8c0@robathome> My current plan is to send the mail labels to Accuprint on the 11th (Monday). Instead of fussing with editing the pdf each month I uploaded a copy of the partially filled in form to http://www.sjaa.net/rh/3602-NZ.pdf The first page of the PDF shows the fields that need to be filled in on the second page. I will supply the information in text form. If someone wants to print the labels themselves then let me know. You have to either accept a csv (comma separated text) file for input into a mail merge program or a PDF of the label images. We currently use Avery 8161 labels. I can provide a mail merge template in MS word format or you can create one of your own. If you create a new template I will need to send you some additional information to insure that the labels meet USPS regulations. With regards to PostNET PostNet looks like the new certification process for bar-coded mail. This was formerly called "full automation". I can understand why the office would like to you adopt that as it is their job to sell this program as "the wave of the future". It would require us to be a certified shipper, maintain CASS, etc. http://www.usps.com/ncsc/addressservices/certprograms/barcode.htm Our current post program is not on the approved vendors list for the new system http://ribbs.usps.gov/files/vendors/POSTNET_VENDOR.PDF I recommend that we continue to mail as we do not until they tell us that PostNet Compliance is required. With the small number of pieces we ship we can not justify the expense and risk of rejection. http://bulkmail.info/cass.html At that point we would do what is necessary (including possibly going to first class). In the mean time I will manually maintain the addresses (to avoid the cost of CASS), we should continue to seal the mailings, and we should mail as "Machinable". Rob Hawley From mark.wagner at resource-intl.com Thu Dec 7 10:41:01 2006 From: mark.wagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Thu Dec 7 16:07:50 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <4577D493.9000703@aenet.net> References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <457545C9.9000803@aenet.net> <20061205183245.GA25716@shallowsky.com> <4575C0EB.3090003@resource-intl.com> <45761A38.6070201@aenet.net> <1119.67.116.242.55.1165376046.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> <4576AFB4.30209@aenet.net> <4576FAAA.2090902@resource-intl.com> <4577D493.9000703@aenet.net> Message-ID: <4578603D.8030304@resource-intl.com> Gary Mitchell wrote: > And this is where the policy comes in. I mentioned to Jim that he > needs to add this to the document he sends to teachers giving advice > and tips for star parties. The tips include: dress warmly, don't run, > no bright flashlights, etc. We need to add: please don't give the > kids any paperwork to fill out. That's the sort of thing I'm talking > about. Is that so horrible? I don't see anything wrong with that. In some ways it is in line with the more formalized way I and others envisioned the program years ago. But Jim is the person in charge. Not me, not you, not the board. > They're all SJAA events. At similar events, why should we have a > policy of no forms at one but not another? I don't understand that at > all. I chose not to participate in the school star party program, I didn't have the tolerance for it the way it was run (others do though!). I enjoy Houge Park star parties, they are to me entirely different. You remarked that the only real differences between Houge and school events is that for one they come to us, for the other we go to them. But the real differences are obvious. At Houge, if a hundred public come out to the star party, maybe ten are students - or so it seems. If there are ten telescopes at Hogue, the students are a very small impact on each participant. At school events, everyone is a student, and you can get hundreds of them spread over (guessing) three to five telescopes, you are totally inundated. Huge difference. I just don't see the need to apply any proposed policy change at school star parties to Houge, they are so different. With what the board passed at their last meeting, without the participation of the school star party chairman, a "solution" for a complaint about school star parties has been in my mind unnecessarily applied to Houge Park star parties. I am also curious how you would handle someone at Houge asking you to sign their homework sheet... and/or prevent them from shining their cell phone on a piece of paper.... Mark From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Dec 7 16:35:33 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Thu Dec 7 16:34:31 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] star party forms Message-ID: <4578B355.901@aenet.net> Jim is writing something about forms in his document for teachers about school star parties, but he has yet to include a statement about SJAA policy on the matter. I suggested adding something like the following: > "SJAA policy: Paperwork at star parties has become such a problem that > the SJAA board decided on a policy against the practice. We have no > control over what teachers require of their students, so this policy > is largely symbolic. However, it should serve as an indication of the > problem and we hope it will discourage paperwork at the scopes." > "This policy does not apply to sketching. But sketching is a time > consuming solitary activity and not very easy to do at most school star > party settings." Our policy simply states: "we will not participate in filling out forms." How to implement the policy I think is where we're having problems. The board needs to do a little clarification. The way to handle this is not to argue with each and every kid, but to prevent it from happening in the first place. Making sure teachers know how we feel and appreciate the problem well in advance is how this should proceed. This should also have a "spill-over" effect at Houge. Gary From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Dec 7 17:02:43 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Thu Dec 7 17:01:44 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Re: Signing forms In-Reply-To: <4578603D.8030304@resource-intl.com> References: <003f01c71719$48a51c70$0300a8c0@robathome> <4573D7A5.7080202@aenet.net> <1157.67.116.242.55.1165245016.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <457545C9.9000803@aenet.net> <20061205183245.GA25716@shallowsky.com> <4575C0EB.3090003@resource-intl.com> <45761A38.6070201@aenet.net> <1119.67.116.242.55.1165376046.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> <4576AFB4.30209@aenet.net> <4576FAAA.2090902@resource-intl.com> <4577D493.9000703@aenet.net> <4578603D.8030304@resource-intl.com> Message-ID: <4578B9B3.1030005@aenet.net> Mark Wagner wrote: > You remarked that the only real differences between Houge and school > events is that for one they come to us, for the other we go to them. > But the real differences are obvious. At Houge, if a hundred public > come out to the star party, maybe ten are students - or so it seems. If > there are ten telescopes at Hogue, the students are a very small impact > on each participant. At school events, everyone is a student, and you > can get hundreds of them spread over (guessing) three to five > telescopes, you are totally inundated. Huge difference. But that's just volume, it's the same type of event. A picnic doesn't become some hugely different type of event just by adding more people. And they're not just students, there are many family and friends too. Jim might give a better estimate, but I'd say maybe 25 percent are not students. > I am also curious how you would handle someone at Houge asking you to > sign their homework sheet... and/or prevent them from shining their cell > phone on a piece of paper.... See my other note to the board remailer. To emphasize: the way I'd handle that is to cut it off at the source. It's like weeds, you need to pull 'em up by the roots, not pick at the tops. For kids with cell phones and forms that show up anyway, I deal with it the same way I deal with any flashlights. And I *do* sign and answer form questions at Houge (grudgingly). As I said before, it's not the student's fault. Gary From akkana at shallowsky.com Thu Dec 7 20:38:54 2006 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana Peck) Date: Thu Dec 7 20:39:03 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] star party forms In-Reply-To: <4578B355.901@aenet.net> References: <4578B355.901@aenet.net> Message-ID: <20061208043854.GC22658@shallowsky.com> Gary Mitchell writes: > I suggested adding something like the following: > > > "SJAA policy: Paperwork at star parties has become such a problem that > > the SJAA board decided on a policy against the practice. We have no > > control over what teachers require of their students, so this policy > > is largely symbolic. However, it should serve as an indication of the > > problem and we hope it will discourage paperwork at the scopes." That spends a lot of verbiage on hedging and saying "feel free to ignore this paragraph". Maybe something more direct, and with an explanation as to why? Perhaps something like: Student paperwork at star parties has become a problem: we find that it's difficult for both students and volunteers to to fill out forms in the dark. The SJAA requests that teachers please NOT assign paperwork to be filled out at star parties, either by students or by the volunteers. Me, I don't mind if students take notes. If I were a student at a star party for the first time, I'd certainly want to write down that I looked at M13, M42 and Clavius through a 10" f/5 at 48x, 48x and 175x -- they can't be expected to remember stuff like that. Is the problem mostly that they use bright cellphones as flashlights? Could they be encouraged to go off somewhere away from the scopes if they're going to do that? Or someone try to bring some red cellophane to hand out? I've seen that work at other school star parties. ...Akkana From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Dec 7 23:58:23 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Thu Dec 7 23:57:17 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] star party forms In-Reply-To: <20061208043854.GC22658@shallowsky.com> References: <4578B355.901@aenet.net> <20061208043854.GC22658@shallowsky.com> Message-ID: <45791B1F.5080205@aenet.net> Akkana Peck wrote: > Gary Mitchell writes: > >>I suggested adding something like the following: >> >> >>>"SJAA policy: Paperwork at star parties has become such a problem that >>>the SJAA board decided on a policy against the practice. We have no >>>control over what teachers require of their students, so this policy >>>is largely symbolic. However, it should serve as an indication of the >>>problem and we hope it will discourage paperwork at the scopes." > > > That spends a lot of verbiage on hedging and saying "feel free > to ignore this paragraph". Maybe something more direct, and with > an explanation as to why? Perhaps something like: > > Student paperwork at star parties has become a problem: we find > that it's difficult for both students and volunteers to to fill > out forms in the dark. The SJAA requests that teachers please > NOT assign paperwork to be filled out at star parties, > either by students or by the volunteers. The main thing is that something like this gets put in there. > Me, I don't mind if students take notes. That's fine with me too. In fact, I've gone so far as to pull out star charts and reference books for them. But that sort of thing is done by someone who is interested in what's being shown, it's not an organized deluge of silly written questions they have to answer. > Is the problem mostly that they use bright cellphones as flashlights? That doesn't happen very often, fortunately. I've found that red light is less important than the overall brightness. In other words, a bright red light doesn't become OK just because it's red. > Could they be encouraged to go off somewhere away from the scopes > if they're going to do that? Or someone try to bring some red > cellophane to hand out? I've seen that work at other school star parties. Fortunately, we don't get a huge problem with flashlights at the school star parties. There's usually lots of light around anyway. Once in a while you have to advise someone staring into their cell phone what they're doing to their night vision. But if papers come out, so do the lights. The last school star party was nearly a paperwork disaster, but Jim was able to defuse it. The teacher had forms ready--which we were supposed to sign. However, at the last minute they changed it so the papers became "tickets." The kids got one at the star party to be handed in the next day for credit. That worked OK. Gary From pkohlmil at best.com Mon Dec 11 08:23:54 2006 From: pkohlmil at best.com (Paul Kohlmiller) Date: Mon Dec 11 08:24:29 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] January Ephemeris draft Message-ID: <000601c71d40$c71d7f20$0800a8c0@PKHPXPP> Three years and counting for your Ephemeris editors. The January issue is now available for proofing at http://ephemeris.sjaa.net/0701/EphJan07.pdf This issue should go to the printer's on the morning of Wed. Dec. 13. Note: I think I'm following the wishes of the board in not putting the ATM Workshop items in the calendar of events. There is a extremely concise list of astronomy related recent events on page 4. We hope to make this a regular thing - possibly replacing the page 6 Solar System Stats at some point. Thank you, Paul and Mary Kohlmiller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20061211/ecafaadd/attachment.html From mark.wagner at resource-intl.com Mon Dec 11 09:23:20 2006 From: mark.wagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Mon Dec 11 09:22:37 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] January Ephemeris draft In-Reply-To: <000601c71d40$c71d7f20$0800a8c0@PKHPXPP> References: <000601c71d40$c71d7f20$0800a8c0@PKHPXPP> Message-ID: <457D9408.2040909@resource-intl.com> Paul Kohlmiller wrote: > possibly replacing the page 6 Solar System Stats at some point. I think Akkana's article inadvertently begins with the word "But" which does not seem correct. Nice article. The info on the August lunar eclipse somehow brought back memories of the lunar eclipse rising in the east combined with comet Hale-Bopp setting out over the Pacific from Fremont Peak years ago. It looks to me that the Solar System Stats have been reduced already, by the IAU. Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20061211/9503cdd2/attachment.html From akkana at shallowsky.com Mon Dec 11 10:05:18 2006 From: akkana at shallowsky.com (Akkana Peck) Date: Mon Dec 11 10:05:19 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] January Ephemeris draft In-Reply-To: <457D9408.2040909@resource-intl.com> References: <000601c71d40$c71d7f20$0800a8c0@PKHPXPP> <457D9408.2040909@resource-intl.com> Message-ID: <20061211180518.GA14762@shallowsky.com> Mark Wagner writes: > Paul Kohlmiller wrote: > >possibly replacing the page 6 Solar System Stats at some point. > > I think Akkana's article inadvertently begins with the word "But" which > does not seem correct. Oops! That was an error on my end (shifting paragraphs around at the last minute). Paul, can you remove the "But"? > Nice article. The info on the August lunar > eclipse somehow brought back memories of the lunar eclipse rising in the > east combined with comet Hale-Bopp setting out over the Pacific from > Fremont Peak years ago. I miss Hale-Bopp! We could use another comet like that one ... > It looks to me that the Solar System Stats have been reduced already, by > the IAU. Apparently that table comes from the RASC, and they've always omitted Pluto from the monthly planet chart. I don't know why -- they have lots of Pluto information in the back and an excellent Pluto finder chart for the year, but they don't see fit to list it on the monthly pages -- maybe it's just layout and font size concerns. Looking forward to seeing how Ernie's transit photos came out. Mine were pretty fuzzy, but I was just handholding a point-and-shoot camera to the eyepiece. No problem seeing Mercury, though. I like "The Last 30 Days" column. ...Akkana From robhawley at earthlink.net Mon Dec 11 10:14:16 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Mon Dec 11 10:14:25 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] January Ephemeris draft In-Reply-To: <000601c71d40$c71d7f20$0800a8c0@PKHPXPP> Message-ID: <005601c71d50$2be510d0$0400a8c0@robathome> The events are much more interesting. I strongly endorse you continuing this feature. WRT the Solar System Stats table given the ubiquitous presence of the same information both on the web and via PC based planetarium programs I don't see the need for this to be in the Ephemeris. If you wanted to do something different you could have major events such as Jupiter events, transits, etc. I eliminated those non visible in the evening. Some examples: Phases of the Moon Date (UT) Description 2007 Jan 03 13:57 Full Moon 2007 Jan 11 12:43 Last Quarter 2007 Jan 19 04:00 New Moon 2007 Jan 25 23:01 First Quarter Date Sunset Twilight Darkness Twilight Sunrise Mon 01 Jan 07 17:00 18:32 None 05:42 07:14 Thu 11 Jan 07 17:09 18:40 18:40 - 01:13 05:43 07:13 Fri 19 Jan 07 17:17 18:46 18:46 - 05:42 05:42 07:11 Wed 31 Jan 07 17:29 18:57 None 05:36 07:04 Starry Night generated events from 1/1/2007 until 1/31/2007 Name Start Date Start Time End Date End Time Io Eclipse 1/1/2007 11:54 PM 1/2/2007 2:11 AM Europa Sh Transit 1/6/2007 11:07 PM 1/7/2007 1:49 AM Io Shadow Transit 1/9/2007 10:57 PM 1/10/2007 1:12 AM Ganymede Transit 1/9/2007 11:28 PM 1/10/2007 2:03 AM Io Transit 1/9/2007 11:43 PM 1/10/2007 2:00 AM Europa Sh Transit 1/10/2007 12:24 PM 1/10/2007 3:06 PM Io Occultation 1/17/2007 11:03 PM 1/18/2007 1:19 AM Rob Hawley From mark.wagner at resource-intl.com Mon Dec 11 10:29:40 2006 From: mark.wagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Mon Dec 11 10:28:54 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] January Ephemeris draft In-Reply-To: <000601c71d40$c71d7f20$0800a8c0@PKHPXPP> References: <000601c71d40$c71d7f20$0800a8c0@PKHPXPP> Message-ID: <457DA394.3000800@resource-intl.com> Paul Kohlmiller wrote: > This issue should go to the printer's on the morning of Wed. Dec. 13. When would you expect it to hit the recipient's mailboxes? Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.sjaa.net/pipermail/sjaaboard/attachments/20061211/eaa99650/attachment.html From jvn at svpal.org Mon Dec 11 17:53:23 2006 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Mon Dec 11 17:53:51 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] January Ephemeris draft References: <000601c71d40$c71d7f20$0800a8c0@PKHPXPP> Message-ID: <457E0B93.78A9@svpal.org> Paul Kohlmiller wrote: > > Three years and counting for your Ephemeris editors. The January issue > is now available for proofing at > http://ephemeris.sjaa.net/0701/EphJan07.pdf Calendar looks good. > Note: I think I'm following the wishes of the board in not putting the > ATM Workshop items in the calendar of events. Yes, until we're sure that the program will continue. They're not on the hot line, either. > There is a extremely > concise list of astronomy related recent events on page 4. We hope to > make this a regular thing - possibly replacing the page 6 Solar System > Stats at some point. The solar stats can be generated by many computer programs. I used to buy the Astronomical Almanac every year, but eventually I was generating my own data. I'd favor expanding the astronomy news. Clear Skies! -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site From robhawley at earthlink.net Wed Dec 13 17:37:22 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Wed Dec 13 17:37:17 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Membership report for December Message-ID: <001201c71f20$67069e50$0400a8c0@robathome> How many memberships expire in which month? Last SJAA Meeting 12/2/2006 Report Date 12/13/2006 expired 58 Oct-06 7 Nov-06 4 Dec-06 9 Jan-07 16 Feb-07 21 Mar-07 23 Apr-07 11 May-07 24 Jun-07 57 Jul-07 22 Aug-07 27 Sep-07 19 Oct-07 18 Nov-07 19 Dec-07 14 Jan-08 1 more than 13 months 8 complementary 32 expiring 11 paid(current) 289 email delivery 30 Labels Generated 295 S&T Members 179 New Members since last meeting 2 current + complementary 321 ********************************************************************* When did members join? paid only 2006 58 2005 41 2004 32 2003 30 2002 16 2001 9 2000 1 < 2000 102 total 289 ********************************************************************* Which members are not renewing? 2006 0 2005 23 2004 14 2003 10 2002 5 2001 0 2000 0 < 2000 17 total 69 ******************************************************************** History Combined Current Paid Complementary New Members 5/11/2006 323 295 28 8 6/7/2006 318 290 28 3 8/9/2006 315 285 30 10 9/7/2006 318 289 29 7 10/4/2006 316 285 31 7 12/13/2006 321 289 32 2 Rob Hawley From koopm at koopm.best.vwh.net Tue Dec 19 10:41:24 2006 From: koopm at koopm.best.vwh.net (Michael Koop) Date: Tue Dec 19 10:41:42 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris Picked up, Label tonight? Message-ID: <20061219113913.D5254@koopm.best.vwh.net> I have picked up the ephemeris from Accuprint. How about a few of us meet over at Houge to get them labeled. 8:30 would work best for me. Mike From rnapo at znet.com Tue Dec 19 11:11:24 2006 From: rnapo at znet.com (Rich N) Date: Tue Dec 19 11:11:37 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris Picked up, Label tonight? References: <20061219113913.D5254@koopm.best.vwh.net> Message-ID: <000301c723a1$7b5519b0$17f61345@180edt> Ok, 8:30 tonight at Houge. Rich >I have picked up the ephemeris from Accuprint. > How about a few of us meet over at Houge to get them labeled. > 8:30 would work best for me. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > From mark.wagner at resource-intl.com Tue Dec 19 11:14:42 2006 From: mark.wagner at resource-intl.com (Mark Wagner) Date: Tue Dec 19 11:14:08 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris Picked up, Label tonight? In-Reply-To: <000301c723a1$7b5519b0$17f61345@180edt> References: <20061219113913.D5254@koopm.best.vwh.net> <000301c723a1$7b5519b0$17f61345@180edt> Message-ID: <45883A22.2070308@resource-intl.com> Rich N wrote: > Ok, 8:30 tonight at Houge. > Brrrr.... that's gonna be one cold room! From rnapo at znet.com Tue Dec 19 11:17:35 2006 From: rnapo at znet.com (Rich N) Date: Tue Dec 19 11:17:44 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris Picked up, Label tonight? References: <20061219113913.D5254@koopm.best.vwh.net><000301c723a1$7b5519b0$17f61345@180edt> <45883A22.2070308@resource-intl.com> Message-ID: <000b01c723a2$57757ca0$17f61345@180edt> Yep. And we aren't there long enough to make it worth turning on the heater. > Rich N wrote: >> Ok, 8:30 tonight at Houge. >> > Brrrr.... that's gonna be one cold room! > _______________________________________________ > SJAABoard mailing list > SJAABoard@sjaa.net > http://www.sjaa.net/mailman/listinfo/sjaaboard > From jvn at svpal.org Tue Dec 19 13:55:55 2006 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Tue Dec 19 15:03:07 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris Picked up, Label tonight? Message-ID: <45885FEB.3735@svpal.org> Michael Koop wrote: > I have picked up the ephemeris from Accuprint. > How about a few of us meet over at Houge to get them labeled. > 8:30 would work best for me. I presume to mean today, Tuesday. I'll be there. A late reminder would be helpful, my memory being what is isn't. Clear Skies! -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Dec 19 19:16:22 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Tue Dec 19 19:14:55 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephemeris Picked up, Label tonight? In-Reply-To: <20061219113913.D5254@koopm.best.vwh.net> References: <20061219113913.D5254@koopm.best.vwh.net> Message-ID: <4588AB06.4010600@aenet.net> Michael Koop wrote: > I have picked up the ephemeris from Accuprint. > How about a few of us meet over at Houge to get them labeled. > 8:30 would work best for me. > > Mike 8:30 it is, (I've got the labels). Gary From koopm at koopm.best.vwh.net Mon Dec 25 01:03:59 2006 From: koopm at koopm.best.vwh.net (Michael Koop) Date: Mon Dec 25 01:04:15 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephmeris Recieved? Message-ID: <20061225015640.H83426@koopm.best.vwh.net> Has anyone recieved their Ephmeris yet? They were dropped off at the post office on Wednesday, Dec. 20th at 9:40 AM. Usually, I see them two or three days later. Mike Merry Christmas! From jvn at svpal.org Mon Dec 25 02:35:50 2006 From: jvn at svpal.org (Jim Van Nuland) Date: Mon Dec 25 02:36:46 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephmeris Recieved? References: <20061225015640.H83426@koopm.best.vwh.net> Message-ID: <458FA986.27F8@svpal.org> Michael Koop wrote: > > Has anyone recieved their Ephmeris yet? > They were dropped off at the post office on Wednesday, > Dec. 20th at 9:40 AM. Usually, I see them two or three days later. Nothing here in 95124, but late December is far from "usually" at the post office. Clear Skies! -- Jim Van Nuland, San Jose (California) Astronomical Association JVN's web site From wb6yru at aenet.net Tue Dec 26 01:46:28 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Tue Dec 26 01:45:01 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Ephmeris Recieved? In-Reply-To: <20061225015640.H83426@koopm.best.vwh.net> References: <20061225015640.H83426@koopm.best.vwh.net> Message-ID: <4590EF74.5010201@aenet.net> Michael Koop wrote: > Has anyone recieved their Ephmeris yet? > They were dropped off at the post office on Wednesday, Dec. 20th at 9:40 > AM. Usually, I see them two or three days later. > It would have had to show up on Saturday, but didn't (95124 zip). That's not surprising, given this is their busiest time. Gary From robhawley at earthlink.net Thu Dec 28 09:59:17 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Thu Dec 28 09:59:25 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Announcing new SJAA Auction program is available Message-ID: <001a01c72aa9$e4e76cc0$0400a8c0@robathome> The revised SJAA auction program is now available for downloading at. http://www.sjaa.net/rh/auction/ The site also contains a link to the documentation in PDF format. http://www.sjaa.net/rh/auction/New%20Auction.pdf While testing the program I compiled stats on the auctions run from 1986 to 2006. These are interesting in their own right. There is a link off the site, but here is also a link. http://www.sjaa.net/rh/auction/Auction%20History.htm I will provide the next board meeting a DVD containing the source, development environment installation, and all of the test data. Rob Hawley From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Dec 28 14:33:13 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Thu Dec 28 14:31:31 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Announcing new SJAA Auction program is available In-Reply-To: <001a01c72aa9$e4e76cc0$0400a8c0@robathome> References: <001a01c72aa9$e4e76cc0$0400a8c0@robathome> Message-ID: <45944629.3000309@aenet.net> Rob Hawley wrote: > The revised SJAA auction program is now available for downloading at. > > http://www.sjaa.net/rh/auction/ It requires Windose XP (with service pack). That's kind of limiting for some of us. Do you have an option? That is, could you compile it for other (earlier) systems? Gary From robhawley at earthlink.net Thu Dec 28 19:31:41 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Thu Dec 28 19:31:46 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Announcing new SJAA Auction program is available In-Reply-To: <45944629.3000309@aenet.net> Message-ID: <002a01c72af9$db8135d0$0400a8c0@robathome> > It requires Windose XP (with service pack). That's kind of > limiting for some of us. Do you have an option? That is, > could you compile it for other (earlier) systems? No Rob Hawley From robhawley at earthlink.net Thu Dec 28 19:40:47 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Thu Dec 28 19:40:54 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Announcing new SJAA Auction program is available In-Reply-To: <002a01c72af9$db8135d0$0400a8c0@robathome> Message-ID: <002b01c72afb$20e3daf0$0400a8c0@robathome> If your concern was Linux versus Windows XP I would almost be sympathetic, but that isn't the issue is it. If you want to run the DOS based program then a compiled version will be available on the DVD (or you can get it from Jim) and you be responsible for running it. I have spent roughly 2-3 man months on the new edition so I sure you will understand my reaction. Rob Hawley From wb6yru at aenet.net Thu Dec 28 23:54:12 2006 From: wb6yru at aenet.net (Gary Mitchell) Date: Thu Dec 28 23:52:28 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Announcing new SJAA Auction program is available In-Reply-To: <002b01c72afb$20e3daf0$0400a8c0@robathome> References: <002b01c72afb$20e3daf0$0400a8c0@robathome> Message-ID: <4594C9A4.4020601@aenet.net> Rob Hawley wrote: > If your concern was Linux versus Windows XP I would almost be sympathetic, > but that isn't the issue is it. > > If you want to run the DOS based program then a compiled version will be > available on the DVD (or you can get it from Jim) and you be responsible for > running it. The DOS based one, is that Jim's old version? I was thinking about Windows 98, or even 95. I've got some old lap-tops with 95 and 98 that we could use, if needed. > I have spent roughly 2-3 man months on the new edition so I sure you will > understand my reaction. No, I don't understand. Are you saying you want to exclude non-XP users from all your hard work? The effort you put in is not the issue. Once the code is written, presumably your compiler could produce code for a previous OS. I've got a C compiler that does that, it'll optimize for various processors too. It's just a matter of making the selection and recompiling. It only takes a few seconds. I was just asking whether your compiler could do that. You say no. Well, that's surprising. I'm no big expert on compilers, but this is the first time I've heard of one so limited. I'm using Windows 98 and was looking forward to trying your program, but apparently that's not going to happen. Gary From robhawley at earthlink.net Fri Dec 29 08:59:36 2006 From: robhawley at earthlink.net (Rob Hawley) Date: Fri Dec 29 08:59:46 2006 Subject: [SJAABoard] Announcing new SJAA Auction program is available In-Reply-To: <4594C9A4.4020601@aenet.net> Message-ID: <001101c72b6a$b9278090$0400a8c0@robathome> At least 3 board members have laptops capable of meeting the program's requirements. Since there is a limited audience for these concerns I will take further discussion off line. Rob Hawley